Suspect Chemical Facility Found!

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: Quote: Originally posted by Attalus: Heck, the Arab papers, according to Victor David Hanson are already saying that we are using atomic weapons. No matter what happens, there are those who will ascribe the worst motives and basest actions to us. *Shrugs* What are ya gonna do?

I think someone should remind Victor Davis Hanson that the British, Australians and the Spanish (Note the presence of some self-satisfied Europeans(!)) are there with the Americans, and that you are *not* alone. Then again, that would rob him of his catchphrase, so I doubt he would ever admit you've got help.

As to the rest of his article, it's mostly valid. One of my fears was that with all the talk of a grateful Iraqi populace and demoralised Iraqi force, that people would expect us to have the whole thing done in a week with no casualties. This is a war, and in war people die, including civilians. It's terrible, but that's the weay it is. It's never easy, and I think coalition foeces are showing a great deal of restraint. After all, it would be easy to bomb the country to ash, but we're not.

And on the nuclear weapons thing - the sad thing is not that papers will lie, but that the citizens of the countries being told this may be ignorant enough to believe it, leading to *nuke the west* campaigns. Sad.[/QUOTE]It is indeed a good chest thumping article, and highlights the susceptability of the Arab world to anti-Western propeganda (makes you wonder if we're as susceptable we are to anti-Arab propeganda ). I think what gets me the most isn't the fact that they're spreading this sort of BS, but rather that the Islamic world is eating it up hook, line, and sinker.

If there were Nukes in play there would be no Iraq, and the US would be guilty of a crime as horrible as any in history. They want us to believe the "guilty" part without questioning the fact that Iraq is still alive and kicking... and some out there apparently DO. People never cease to amaze me. *shrug*

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Don't be too sure about taking the wind out of the opposition’s sails simply by finding WoMD. Many people and governments are going to say anything found was planted by Americans.

Ronn just remember that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, we didn't really land on the moon, the fall of the USSR was really a Trilateral Comission ploy, Elvis, Jance Joplin, Jimmy Hendrix, and Jim Morrison are really alive and immortal, after meeting with an ancient Egyptian priestess who had discovered the seceret of immortality and sold it to them for $2 million dollars each.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Don't be too sure about taking the wind out of the opposition’s sails simply by finding WoMD. Many people and governments are going to say anything found was planted by Americans.

Ronn just remember that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, we didn't really land on the moon, the fall of the USSR was really a Trilateral Comission ploy, Elvis, Jance Joplin, Jimmy Hendrix, and Jim Morrison are really alive and immortal, after meeting with an ancient Egyptian priestess who had discovered the seceret of immortality and sold it to them for $2 million dollars each. [/QUOTE]Hey, don't make fun of the King. He is alive. I saw him in a 7-11 in '85. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I know this may seem like an odd question...but do we really need to find WoMD to "justify" the war on Saddam Hussein?? Is the reaction of the Iraqi population not "justification" enough?? If you've watched any news reports over the weekend, then you've seen the footage of Iraqi's running up and shaking the hands of American soldiers. You've also seen the Shiite Muslim slapping the picture of Saddam Hussein with his shoe. But the most significant testimony I've heard was on the news this morning. NBC was showing footage of American soldiers tending to wounded Iraqi's (not sure if they were soldiers or civilians). One older man said that 5 members of his family had been killed when a mortar shell from the Coalition Forces struck his home....but he was STILL glad that we had come in to take Saddam Hussein out. How evil does Saddam Hussein have to be for his own citizens to feel it is better for their family to die at the hands of the Coalition Forces than to continue living under his rulership? And - with that being the case - what other "justification" do we really need to end the reign of Saddam Hussein?

I have no doubt that some Iraqis are extremely happy to see the Coalition forces arriving in their towns. However I think the media may be overplaying and misrepresenting their reactions. I was watching American ABC the other day, and they were interviewing a journalist in southern Iraq. He was talking about the footage shown of soldiers entering Safwan, and the Iraqis dancing on the streets, tearing pictures down of Saddam, and saying 'Bush good' and so on. But then the soldiers secured the area and moved on, and this journalist and his crew went to Safwan. There was no more dancing; the journalists weren't welcomed with open arms. Instead there was anger, and suspicion, and fear for their future. What were the US going to do, why were they here, how long were they going to stay? It's probably very easy to be jubilant when the 'invading' (to their eyes) army is in your town with all their weapons and might, even if in fact they're not feeling quite so happy.

[Davros]

I have to admit I will be much happier when we find evidince of WOMD. If against all odds they don't (and I just don't see that happening), I have to reluctantly admit I would prefer for them to manufacture proof rather than front the world and say "Whoops, looks like we were wrong". Just my 2c.

[pritchke]

I have to admit I will be much happier when we find evidince of WOMD. If against all odds they don't (and I just don't see that happening), I have to reluctantly admit I would prefer for them to manufacture proof rather than front the world and say "Whoops, looks like we were wrong".

I respect honesty above all else. If the coalition governments wishes to play others for fools than fine. But I would have no respect for a government that falsified evidence like that. If they find no evidence than the leader of a genuine government would admit that the action was wrong, apologize, continue to help with reconstruction, and possibly the leader should step down. I wouldn't mind them deflecting the issue with a propaganda campaign of how good it will be with the dictator out of the picture however. However no falsified lies and claims. This is an insult on other countries saying they are too stupid to know the difference and a slap in the face.

[ 03-24-2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Animal]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I know this may seem like an odd question...but do we really need to find WoMD to "justify" the war on Saddam Hussein?? Is the reaction of the Iraqi population not "justification" enough?? If you've watched any news reports over the weekend, then you've seen the footage of Iraqi's running up and shaking the hands of American soldiers. You've also seen the Shiite Muslim slapping the picture of Saddam Hussein with his shoe. But the most significant testimony I've heard was on the news this morning. NBC was showing footage of American soldiers tending to wounded Iraqi's (not sure if they were soldiers or civilians). One older man said that 5 members of his family had been killed when a mortar shell from the Coalition Forces struck his home....but he was STILL glad that we had come in to take Saddam Hussein out. How evil does Saddam Hussein have to be for his own citizens to feel it is better for their family to die at the hands of the Coalition Forces than to continue living under his rulership? And - with that being the case - what other "justification" do we really need to end the reign of Saddam Hussein?

Your completely right, however the justification for the early invasion without backing for the UN was Iraq's possesion of illegal WoMD. If it's found, that Saddam was telling the truth all along, I suspect that Bush will be the one standing trial.

I do agree with you however, that he does need to be removed, and the UN should have done so 12 years ago, holding him accountable for his actions then.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by pritchke: I have to admit I will be much happier when we find evidince of WOMD. If against all odds they don't (and I just don't see that happening), I have to reluctantly admit I would prefer for them to manufacture proof rather than front the world and say "Whoops, looks like we were wrong". I respect honesty above all else. If the coalition governments wishes to play others for fools than fine. But I would have no respect for a government that falsified evidence like that. If they find no evidence than the leader of a genuine government would admit that the action was wrong, apologize, continue to help with reconstruction, and possibly the leader should step down. I wouldn't mind them deflecting the issue with a propaganda campaign of how good it will be with the dictator out of the picture however. However no falsified lies and claims. This is an insult on other countries saying they are too stupid to know the difference and a slap in the face.

I'd have to agree with you on the honesty, But the US & UK also stated that Human rights violations where also a reason for going in. So when there are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqis testifing to the butalities of the Sodamn Insane regime, Who's going to stand up and say the US & UK where wrong to go in because we couldn't find as many WoMD as we thunked there were? WoMD is ok but killing, maiming, and tortureing is not ok to go in, I don't think there will be a leader in the entire world that will be that assinie.
Now this plant we found, we may not be saying we've found any WoMD's there because we know there are other plants that we haven't got yet, and if we let the cat out of the bag Sodamn Insane's people may try to destroy them before we get our hands on them(the Plants). It may be better to let the Iraqis think those dumb Americans can't find anything.

[ 03-24-2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[pritchke]

John D I actually think we are basically saying the same thing for the most part. That is why after it is over and they can't find WOMD they can plead it was for humanitarian reason instead of lying. I think most of the world would forgive them for that.

I have actually heard very little that the US & UK stated that Human rights violations are the reason for the war at least not recent ones. If human rights are the issue however several other countries will be next. The media as been swamped with reasons of WOMD, and connections to 9/11 at least these are the reason I hear most. I am all for the removal of Saddham I just wasn't for this war, I was for GW1 because then we had every reason to get him and we should have finished it then. Not so much for GW2 because I have not heard anything that he did recently. Although you will not see me protesting for the war to stop because now that it as begun it will be much worse to stop it before finishing it.

[Ronn_Bman]

Human rights will be a beautiful side effect of this action, but it was not the reason for the action. The reason was the disarming of Iraq.