An Alternative to War

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: Give it up B-mann, its pointless to point out facts that have been repeated over and over and over. those who are Anti-War will not acknowledge fact, historical records, UN documents nor any other evidence. They are pure pacifists who will not admit that there is any reason for war. Guess once again Im leaving the war forum, this time not because Im too angry or in trouble due to bad judgement on wording...but because it is so futile to have to keep pointing to the same things over and over.

Actually MagiK, you may note, if you wish, that none of my specific arguments against the hasty invasion of Iraq have anything to do with the personal philosophy of pacifism. Perhaps you are having trouble admitting there are principled arguments against invading Iraq.

To say all those who are Pro-peace in this situation are "pure pacifists" and not "acknowledging" all of the "facts" is gross generalization and incorrect.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Considering the inspectors are diligently working to determine what happened to those womd, we cannot conclusively determine whether those weapons still exist until they are finished. To judge either way at this point is hasty speculation, though considering Saddam's sly ways it is reasonable to speculate those womd exist. If at the end of the inspection process, Hans Blix declares that it cannot be determined by the inspectors that Iraq has disarmed, then this sort of speculation becomes more credible.

Chewie, the inspector's job is NOT to find WoMD or violations hidden by Iraq, their job is to oversee and verify the destruction of WoMD.

Your argument completely dismisses the fact that no group of 100 or 1,000 or 1,000,000 men can cause Iraq to disarm without complete Iraqi cooperation or the use of force.

Without complete and total cooperation by the Iraqi's as demanded by the UN, the inspectors are nearly worthless because they are trying to do a job they weren't designed for and could never do. They are being given the burden of proving that Iraq has WoMD, but their job is not to prove anything. Their job is to oversee the destruction of WoMD that are KNOWN to exist.

12 years is not hasty, and those 12 years have been allowed specifically because of Saddam's sly ways and the willingness of the world to believe and trust him because the world so desperately wants peace it's willing to ignore the facts. I'm not just pointing a finger at the rest of the world here. The US did it's fair share of ignoring this during the 90's as well.

There will be NO end to the inspection process as long as Saddam is allowed to use the prospect of peace to protect his despicable, dangerous, and deadly regime, and that is exactly what he has been doing, what his is doing now, and what he will do in the future if he is given the opportunity.

[skywalker]

Ronn.

What makes you think force will remove all WOMD from Iraq. I ask this because I don't think we can ever find everything that may be hidden if no one is telling.

There is no way to be sure if there are or are no illegal weapons in Iraq.

Mark

[Ronn_Bman]

Mark I've seen you post that before so I'll ask you, "what makes you think it won't?"

As for my answers, the inspectors do know of the hundreds of tons of VX and Anthrax, and they know of the existence of tens of thousands of delivery devices as I've mentioned many, many, many times. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If the regime is removed, then those who hide the weapons are gone. Hidden weapons aren't invisible, their existence is protected by people, and people talk. No not everyone talks, but when you are talking about hundreds of tons of chemical/biological weapons and tens of thousands of delivery devices you are talking about a whole hell of a lot of people involved.

Once those who protect and hide the existence of WoMD are gone, those weapons will be found. Once Baghdad is taken and Iraq is secured those weapons will all be found because there will be no one to hide them anymore.

Mark, I know you believe in the idea that those items will remain hidden for years and suddenly a corrupt Iraqi regime, years from now, will bring them out and the problem will start all over again. The idea that those weapons can remain hidden isn't really valid. Hiding them from 200 inspectors waiting for permission is quite different from hiding them from 300K occupying troops.

[ 03-12-2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[skywalker]

So you think we will have our troops looking for these weapons after the war?

Mark

[Ronn_Bman]

Mark, you know that, after the war, people in Iraq will babble all the information we need to find the sites we are unaware of.

[ 03-12-2003, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Mark, you know that, after the war, people in Iraq will babble all the information we need to find the sites we are unaware of.

The precedent for this has already been set. The "defector" that gave so much information last week about the existence of chemical weapons AND the absolute garuantee these weapons would be used against the US/UK forces. Was he sent to deliberately spread misinformation? Not likely. Saddam has taken a VERY dim view of "defectors" in the past. When his own son-in-laws defected in the mid-90's, he immediately asked them to return and assured them there would be no retaliation. One went back and one didn't. The one who did not go back lived to tell about it - the other didn't. The son-in-law that did not return was one of the sources of information used to gain more extensive knowledge about Saddam's arsenal of weapons.

In 1991, during Desert Storm, the foot soldiers facing the U.S. troops were literally surrendering in droves. A friend of mine in one of the National Guard units said that - when they saw how well the Americans treated them (relatively speaking, of course) - then he willingly went to the commanders to tell them where they could find other "cells" of soldiers...even revealing the location of one of their local HQ camps (the prisoner was an officer of some rank..don't remember how high...likely seargent or lieutenant).

Once Saddam is completely removed from the picture, there WILL be members of his former administration who are willing to talk and finally reveal the location of the WoMD.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Chewbacca - First of all, I want to commend you for staying on topic and posting your preferred solution. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] I personally don't feel that particular option is will solve the problem as long as Saddam Hussein is in the picture, but I think it COULD work once he is removed.

To be fair to you and the others, I sincerely wish there was a way to remove Saddam Hussein without the violence of war....I simply don't see that there is one. But that's just my personal opinion.

I agree that weapons inspectors overseeing the destruction of these WoMD would be an acceptable solution if they had full cooperation from Iraq. This seems to be the best "alternative" solution we have available right now.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: Cerek the problem is although Bush did go to the UN security counsil after Powell repeatetly asked him to do so, he also said that the US can and will attack Iraq on it's own without UN support and that is very very scary because who knows who's next to be deemed evil by Bush Iran? North Korea? and then what? France maybe? or China? There are enough rulers that started out as good leaders and then turned out to be tirans

Rikard, Do you seriously think that President Bush and Sec. of State Powell hadn't talked at length long before Sec. State Powell ever went out into the public arena and started talking about going to the UN? The job of the Sec. of State is to go the Diplomatic route FIRST, that is his entire job. If his boss the President over rules him he will not go out into the public arena and say anything to contradict his boss, He will resign first. The fact that Sec. State Powell said anything in public is because his boss said to do it. The Sec. of State CAN NOT make poilcy on his own that is the job of the President of the United States and his alone.

Who's next to be deemed evil by any world leader?

Now back on topic: as of the post of Rikard's I just quoted Nobody has offer another solution to removing Sodamn Insane from power, but I still have the rest of the thread to read. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: On-topic what i think the UN needs to do is that which Blix recommended arm the troops at home and give Saddam a few months to fully disarm with all the UN troops so near, if saddam does not comply, they can attack the same day as Blix make his last report if Saddam does comply then Iraq needs to keep the Weapon inspectors patrolling on their property also it's up to the council of arab countries to force saddam out of it's chair

That is a good idea, in fact I believe that is exactly what is happening NOW, except it is US and UK troops (apologies to the to other countries contributing troops) sitting there with guns ready. Instead of fighting with the US why doesn't the rest of the world stand with us and acheive the very thing, that you have proposed.

After almost 12 years Sodamn Insane is finally stating to make some kind of moves in the right direction. Why? What has changed? Has he suddenly decided Ok I guess I'll follow the UN? Or has he suddenly had a "Come to Jesus moment" realizing that he's staring down the business end of the most powerful military on the face of the earth? You make the call.