What has Saddam actually done?

[Desdicado]

Thanks Heirophant, Too many quotations flying about!.

"Not saying I'm for or against what you've stated here. But if Israel have a right to fight for their survival, and you support that, then why not support Iraq's right to fight for survival too? They are both violators of human rights and breakers of armistice, so why support one and destroy the other?
Is it because of democracy? Israel is 'democratic' and thus has a stronger right to protection?
Is it because Saddam says he doesn't like your president?
Are you scared of Saddam?"

Agreed with your post (quoted!) further up by the way. It's all about protecting the strongest / wealthiest as far as I can see.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Desdicado: Not saying I'm for or against what you've stated here. But if Israel have a right to fight for their survival, and you support that, then why not support Iraq's right to fight for survival too? They are both violators of human rights and breakers of armistice, so why support one and destroy the other? Is it because of democracy? Israel is 'democratic' and thus has a stronger right to protection? Maybe it's simpler than any of that. Maybe it's the fact that Israel's neighbors have promised to push them "into the sea". The fact is that Israel's enemies don't believe that nation should exist at all. Their enemies actually hate the people of Israel as much as they hate the Israeli government. This is not the case with Iraq. Neither Iraq's neighbors or the US believe that nation should cease to exist. Since no one is denying Iraq's right to exist as a nation, and no one is trying to erase that nation from the map, it's quite different from the issue of Israel. The current issue with Iraq is with it's government, not it's people nor the country as a whole. Is it because Saddam says he doesn't like your president? Do you honestly think the American people are this stupid, or do you merely add this comment to be insulting? Are you scared of Saddam? Are you? I'm afraid that he could become a larger problem than he is today if not taken care of. I'm afraid he could sell or give WoMD to those who aren't worried about being identified as the users of such weapons. Are you so sure Saddam isn't a threat that you would let him do whatever he pleases, regardless of consequence?

[ 03-03-2003, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Desdicado]

To be honest, I can see why Israels neighbours want to see it gone.
If my neighbours sent tanks into my house every two weeks I'd be kinda glad to see them pack up and move back to their parents as well.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Desdicado: To be honest, I can see why Israels neighbours want to see it gone. If my neighbours sent tanks into my house every two weeks I'd be kinda glad to see them pack up and move back to their parents as well.

Put the blame where you will, and I certainly won't defend everything Israel does, but the idea of "pushing them into the sea" pre-dates any Iraeli aggression.

As far as heritage, the Jewish people have as much right to their historic & holy lands as anyone else.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: As far as heritage, the Jewish people have as much right to their historic & holy lands as anyone else.

Indeed they do. But do they have a right to govern their sacred grounds? Have access to them yes.
Give prayer to their God there certainly.
But it has not been their land to govern for over a thousand years. Yet by right of might they seek to change this, and US weaponry allows them to do so. Cease US support, and you cease Israel's existance.
The question is, if the British abandoned the Jews in their 'newfound' home after WW2, will America do the same? Why does America feel obligated to help anyway?

But this is besides the point, and a topic for a completely different thread. Regardless, I do not live there, and thus do not feel the sheer terror of experiencing life in a state of constant apprehension as do both Palestinians and Israelis. The only resolution to the conflict that I can see however, is for the Israeli state to be dissolved. Such a dissolution would entail a brutal massacre of ther Israeli people however, and thus the area must slowly bleed itself to death through perpetual attack and counter-attack.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: But it has not been their land to govern for over a thousand years. Yet by right of might they seek to change this, and US weaponry allows them to do so. Cease US support, and you cease Israel's existance. Right of might is what forced the Jews out to start with, is it wrong that it should return them to their rightful place. The question is, if the British abandoned the Jews in their 'newfound' home after WW2, will America do the same? Why does America feel obligated to help anyway? That isn't the question at all. Britain felt abandonment was the correct thing to do for them, but America did not feel the same. But this is besides the point, and a topic for a completely different thread. Regardless, I do not live there, and thus do not feel the sheer terror of experiencing life in a state of constant apprehension as do both Palestinians and Israelis. The only resolution to the conflict that I can see however, is for the Israeli state to be dissolved. Such a dissolution would entail a brutal massacre of ther Israeli people however, and thus the area must slowly bleed itself to death through perpetual attack and counter-attack. Sounds like the final solution. It is a topic for another thread, but I hope your view of a solution isn't the correct one.

[Wutang]

Desdicado - I don't like a lot of Israeli policies such as their settlements on Palestinian land. In fact, I blame both sides especially the ultra fanatic zealots who want to see the other side destroyed. They are making it extremely difficult for the moderates from framing a substantial peace deal.

If the US does go to war in Iraq, it's not trying to wipe out Iraq from the face of the Earth in contrast to what a lot of Arab countries want to see done with Israel.

As for Israelis sending in tanks and demolishing homes, it's the only answer the Israelis have when their shopping centers, restaurants, discos, and marketplaces keep getting bomb by terrorists.

The Israelis are frustrated. No other Arab nation is seriously willing to talk to them and all they have to deal with is Yasser Arafat whom they despise.

If the Israelis were to leave, where would they go?

[ 03-03-2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Wutang ]

Wutang, thanks to France and Briton and in part to the League of Nations, the ISraelis are right where they should be. The Arabs need to get over it and move on.....that is the short story, but since Arabic leaders (except egypt) will not settle for anything less than complete anhilation of the Jewish state there will never be peace.

Oh I know that is a simplified version of the story but in anut shell that is the heart of the problem.

[Wutang]

True. I think it was the Balfour declaration during WWI that tried to establish the state of Israel after Turkey was losing the war.

But it was tabled due to various reasons.

Instead France and Britain divided the Middle East into their own sphere of influence with the Sykes-Picot treaty.

I think the British controlled Iraq for a while too after WWI.

Again Israel is just a convenient scapegoat. If Israel wasn't there, the Arab countries would be fighting amongst themselves over something else like oil rights and money.

The scaring thing is if Iraq attacks Israel again, Israel will retailiate. it won't hold back like it did in 1991.

[ 03-04-2003, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Wutang ]

Wutang, you pointed something out....the only reason Israel didn't strike back at Iraq in 1991 was because the USA wanted to maintain the coalition....now if it goes off as a US and British only strike, If Iraq fires even one missile at Israel, Im expecting the Israelies to finish the war with Iraq once and for all in one quick strike. I think it would be really foolish of Saddam to try that....