Where are the Apologies?

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by johnny: Quote: Originally posted by skywalker: I disagree, if people in power wanted Saddam to be dead, it would be so. Mark

Come on dude, you know there's only ONE man with real power in Iraq. Sure everyone voted for him during the latest elections, they would have "dissapeared" if they didn't. Noone in that country dares to stand up to him. And you can't take him out from outside Iraq, cause noone really knows where he is. He has dozens of palaces and he never spents a long time in one and the same place.He also has a few "doubles", so even when you could locate him, it's not 100% sure it really is him.[/QUOTE]Its not a question of whether or not they could actually carry it out, what Skywalker is trying to get at is that the West actually quite likes Saddam most of the time. He just isn't helping them at the moment. Ideal solution for the allies would be to go in, kill a load of people, act generally tough, and then leave a force in the country to ensure no decisions are taken in future they don't like. Either they leave Saddam in charge or they leave the Republican Gaurd in charge as thats the only way they'll be able to run the whole country. They're the only organisation left with the infrastructure to do it!

So either Saddam is curbed or simply replaced with someone just as bad as far as the people are concerned. The issue here is whether or not they will allow the allies free reign in the area, not their human rights history or WOMDs. Thats my opinion.

[pritchke]

I am afraid that the evidence presented by Mr. Powell was only circumstantial at best although he did do a good job. That is possibly why no one is apologizing. The evidence was not enough to convince me that they have WMD's. It is enough to increase inspectors and for further investigation. If they find WMD than they should they give Saddam a chance to step down and allow the UN to disarm Iraq and set up a new government. Personally I seldom trust any government when they tell me anything, weather the US, Britain, etc I take everything at face value especially things from the media. There was a recent article in your US newspapers recently about a bunch of terrorist slipping into the US from Canada, many believed it, I believed it, because they had pictures and everything. There was a big panic, bunch of US senators started bashing Canada. Ended up it was all a farce and the story originated from some convict. Their was little damage but we should be very careful how we view the information we receive. We are going to bomb thousands of people to just to get one man who may or may not have WMD. I say if that is the case you had better be correct in the end because if not there are consequences that will be paid in the future.

I think a little patience is required and you all seem way to eager to diminish your stock of cruise missiles.

[johnny]

Why do people still have doubts about wether he has womd or not. He had AND used them in the war against Iran and he used them in his quest to kill all Kurds. What makes people think he wouldnt have any now ?

[Sir Taliesin]

Come on Majik! you didn't really expect an apology, did you? Everyone wants to bury their head in the sand and pretend it will all just go away! Of, course when he gets ahold of a nuke and tries to turn Tel Aviv into a glass parking lot, it'll be too late then. But then to most outside of the US the Israelis deserve it, so then nobody will care then either.

Forgive me if I'm cynical towards the rest of the world, but I just don't understand. For some reason I expected that Europeans would be different considering how Chamberlain tried appeasement with Hitler, only to have it blow up in his face after Hitler attacked Poland. What is the difference between Hitler and Saddom? Some one explain that to me. Hitler killed all the jews, gypsies and other ethnic groups that were always persecuted in Europe and Saddom does the same thing to the Kurds. I guess he needs to kill a few million more to get up there with the "Mad Austrian".

What makes France, Germany, Belgium and Russia think that sending a few hundred more inspectors will help any? Hans Blix doesn't seem to think so. He said as much today!

No, there will be no apolgies, Majik.

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: I don't want anyone to have WoMD.

I dont want anyone to have any either. I want the world to be a peacefull utopis wonderworld where everyone loves each other.

Hey...I want Mike Modano to score 300 goals this year. But that probably wont happen.

If we could get all the world leaders to sign a treaty where they destory all there WoMD,and hold up there end of the deal, that would be great..But that is being naive...Very naive.

If we didnt have WoMD SH and North Korea would turn america into a wasteland..I dont doubt that for a second..Kind of like a policing weapon..

[Chewbacca]

Why should anyone have to apologize for having a moral or ethical objection to war in the light of effective alternatives. A war in haste makes waste of more lives in this situation. Not to mention that regardless of the "evidence", I doubt Saddam's Iraq is a real threat to anyone now, except for invaders.

Also, from my perspective, Kuwait is better gaurded than the subway I ride to work every day and the mall I work in just above the subway station in Boston, a city where terror cells supposedly reside. It is not only a wreckless course of action to wage war in Iraq, but it draws great resources from the war on terror and Homeland Defense. A war in Iraq does nothing to make me feel safe at home.

The war that hasn't started yet has dragged the economy down and contributed to escalating gas prices, mean while many States are in fiscal crisis, yet the war's great cost hasn't even been added to the books. More Resources wasted and debt from a supposedly conservative administration. More reason to turn down the War Drums.

It is now evident that a continued determined engagement by U.N. inspectors leads to fuller access and broader sentiment for the status to remain Quo, ie. No international war with Iraq. The U.S. under Bush is playing a poor leadership role by being so aggressive and unilateral without regard to the veiwpoints of Allies and citizens. Perhaps it all boils down to how one weighs which evidence to come to a conclusion.

I won't apologize for my stance on the issue and I stand-by sound arguements that the build up to war with Iraq is ill-advised along with other nations and citizens.

[Davros]

Originally posted by MagiK: So war is pointless and no one should ever go to war....would that mean you would rather be speaking German right now? Just curious.

Time and again (and not only from the one poster I have highlighted) I have seen wisecracks like this about "how you would all be speaking German", or "the French are only good at surrendering" etc. While I happen to like the US, and believe the cause to disarm Iraq is just, this sort of response is just the sort of unthinking arrogance that causes some to brand the country (US) in that exact same way (mind you, I am smart enough not to brand a whole country by the actions of the few).

No one doubts that the US entering the war was the turning of the tide in WWII, but please spare us the belief that it was done for everyone else's benefit. America was very much the reluctant hero, and held onto its isolationinst principles until Pearl Harbour proved to them once and for all that they couldn't just hide away any longer - that once everything else was gobbled up they could see that they would eventually be next.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad that America finally entered WWII, but lets be truthful and accept that both when they were out, and when they finally came in - it was for selfish reasons - not to save the world.

So I don't see the winning of WWII as grounds for you to lord it over others with comments like this. I am glad that America has shed itself of its isolationist principles and is taking an active role in international affairs - I support it and I love the American people - just don't expect me to genuflect though.

Edited to correct spelling and make the post more general.

[ 02-11-2003, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: Davros ]

[The Hierophant]

I guess some people just don't want to play the 'our gang is right, your gang is wrong' game. Ego feeding at it's worst. Screw it, let's go hiking.

[Ar-Cunin]

Today (on Danish morning TV - so no link)

A group of British journalist have visited the site where the alleged Al-Queda chemical/biological factory (from Powell's presentation) was supposed to be. They found what they described as a 'concrete outhouse' - and little else.

[Moiraine]

I am very surprised at this topic - I don't see why apologies would be in order, since the US still didn't bring evidence convincing enough that war is the answer.

To whom apologize anyway ? No apology did come our way following the 'old Europe' tantrum. By the way, why would 'old' be considered an insult anyway ? Yes, the European countries are older than the US. Couldn't it suggest that we may bring more wisdom to the debate - as you are always so prone, MagiK, to dismiss young people's insights for lacking of experience ...

How long since the US have suffered a war on their own land ? The civil war - 150 years ago. Nobody is still alive to talk of first-hand experience. Here in France, most families have still living members who talk about what it was like, during WWII and even WWI. We know in our very flesh what a war means from the inside - and the personal consequences of these two wars are not past yet.

Who will suffer more from a war - Saddam and the guys in power, or all the Irak citizens who have already suffered so much under Saddam and will now get bombed ?

Also, if I was a simple citizen of Irak or a countru nearby, I would probably resent a lot these people who come from far away to intrude in our affairs, hit us, and then tell us what to do. I thought we were to fight terrorism ? This doesn't look as if it will bring it down at all !