In response to 'No More Sarcasm'

[Fljotsdale]

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Originally posted by Memnoch:
Koth and Aradia, welcome to Ironworks from CRC and MH. [img]smile.gif[/img] Your comments are more than welcome here, I've heard good things about Aradia and I know Koth. You guys might be missing my point, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my earlier posts.

I don't have a problem with sarcasm by itself, perhaps that was not clear in my title. What I don't want are people acting like smartasses and taking potshots at other people by using sarcasm in a way that demeans them and belittles their opinion. It was SC's response to someone in this manner that precipitated this entire issue. We do not normally have a serious discussion forum here for that very reason - sarcasm gets misconstrued, feelings get hurt, anger and hostility grows, and so on. This is what we are trying to avoid.

This is NOT a debating forum where there's a winner or loser, this is a gamingforum with an area temporarily dedicated to the War on Terror where people can share their views. Our standards may be more stringent than with other forums you have been accustomed to, but that's because we want every single one of our members to feel that they can participate. That doesn't make us better - it's just the way we've decided to manage things. I hope this makes things clearer for you.

Anyone can disagree with the rules, by the way - just as long as they're adhered to. Respect for others. That's all we're asking for. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Thanks for that clarification, Memnoch! Helps a lot! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Memnoch]

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Originally posted by Fljotsdale:

Some of those groups get heated, so some people wouldn't dream of joining them, but others jump at the chance for a lively argument. Some in the group arguing go join a more peaceful group until the shouting stops.....
The host just makes sure that no fights break out and keeps the booze away from people who have had too much!

Just like in here. [img]smile.gif[/img] Yes?

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Yes, it's all fine and good to get involved in the lively arguments, lots of fun for the guests and all that! But it's a bit unfair and inconsiderate on the poor hosts who have spend the entire party jumping from group to group to break up fights, don't you think, F? WE don't get to enjoy the party in the meantime. You guys ever think of that? You think we enjoy having to spend hours here checking, rather than posting on topics we like?

We'd like the guests to exercise good judgment and resolve their differences WITHOUT us having to get involved, so we can enjoy our beers!

[Ziroc]

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Actually Memnoch, with respect ... your comment about so few people posting here. Many have left for the opposite reason - that they cannot have a heated debate about issues without subjecting everything they say to major censorship.

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You are TOTALLY wrong. 70% of the people that have left have said they left because of the adversarial atmosphere here. Now, I have two choices here, remove the forum or give no more warnings to offenders.

Hell, even SAZ was so sick of the flames that he didn't want to be a Mod here.. pretty sad when it's THAT bad.

[Memnoch]

We obviously have a disconnect here. This forum is not subject to different rules from the rest of the forum just because of the subject material. We had our doubts in putting this forum up on a gaming site, because of this very reason. There are sticky threads at the top of the forum that indicate the standard of behaviour we expect.

None of us mods/admins have the time to constantly mediate disagreements between people here. We don't have to do it in ANY other forum here. The only problem we have in the other forums are trolls. Why is is that we were able to discuss serious issues in the GD forum in a spirit of friendliness and respect earlier this year but here it seems like every single post I make is to reprimand, admonish or warn someone? I don't like doing it any more than you like hearing it. I'm not here to be a schoolteacher at a playground, but I feel like I'm having to do this here all the time.

Maybe you've all gotten used to a standard of behaviour here that we wouldn't tolerate in the other forums, and I guess we're to blame for letting this become the norm here.

[Silver Cheetah]

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Originally posted by Memnoch:


I don't have a problem with sarcasm by itself, perhaps that was not clear in my title. What I don't want are people acting like smartasses and taking potshots at other people by using sarcasm in a way that demeans them and belittles their opinion. It was SC's response to someone in this manner that precipitated this entire issue. We do not normally have a serious discussion forum here for that very reason - sarcasm gets misconstrued, feelings get hurt, anger and hostility grows, and so on. This is what we are trying to avoid.

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Memnoch, let's get this into perspective. This is what Hiram said, and what I said in reply.

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HIRAM'S POST:
If you read one of my few posts in this forum, you would know that I have extreme difficulty with my nation spending so much money on other countries when our cities are in such disrepair. Our own citizens suffer from want of education, medical treatment, and food. The programs in place are poorly staffed and run. My sense of fairness in impinged upon when I see the United States make an effort to provide aid to another country and then come under criticism for it. )

SILVER CHEETAH'S REPLY: Well excuse me whilst I burst into tears here. The richest country in the world has citizens in need - poor education poor medical treatment and crap food?

There's plenty of money around, much of it in the pockets of people like Bill Gates, and the many many others who make unfeasibly large amounts of money whilst others are starving. Your country doesn't believe in state provided services, and proper safety nets for those in need. What you describe is the consequence of that.

When taxes continue to be lowered whilst people are in dire need, and essential services are provided by private contractors - that's what you get. It's all about priorities. Under Tony Blair, Britain continues down the road that the US has already taken. Blair is finishing what Thatcher started, the privitisation of Britain

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How does what I posted demean Hiram?

My initial comment was a little flip - does that really warrant all the fuss that has followed?

I followed up that comment with an clarification of why I'd made it. My argument was and is that as the richest nation on earth, there is actually no need for people to be living in abject poverty in America. I'd just been reading about Export Processing Zones, where 27 million people in the third world spend up to 20 hours a day at rock bottom wages making clothes for The Gap and shoes for Nike (to take just two examples). Of course, Hiram wasn't to know that. But my post was not an attack on him, nor was it demeaning to him!!

If that cannot be seen, then I think I better move to another forum, as my style of debate seems rather too strong for this one. A pity, as I have grown very fond indeed of many here. Hopefully we'll be able to continue to interact elsewhere.....

[Ziroc]

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Originally posted by Kothoses:
[QB]Mem as a moderator and as a person u have my respect......but after reading over recent events and the events leading up to the start of the recent BAnning Spree I have to ask what the hell is going on over here?
[QB]

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If you call a 'banning spree' 2 people, then fine, but it would NOT have had to come to pass if these people did NOT break the rules.

Why do you think so many people love Ironworks? Why has it been around for 2 1/2 years? Because I DO NOT allow flamewars to happen. HUNDREDS of people have emailed me saying stuff like:

"Thank you for such a great forum, I can actually post without having to worry about being flamed"

ALL Mods can attest to those kinds of posts. Now, sure.. it'll piss some people off--usually the types that are the flame starters or their friends, but as I have said, you cannot please everyone.

Memnoch-- Email me, I am really thinking of just closing this forum.

[Memnoch]

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Originally posted by Ziroc:


Memnoch-- Email me, I am really thinking of just closing this forum.

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I just emailed you, mate.

[Fljotsdale]

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Originally posted by Memnoch:


Yes, it's all fine and good to get involved in the lively arguments, lots of fun for the guests and all that! But it's a bit unfair and inconsiderate on the poor hosts who have spend the entire party jumping from group to group to break up fights, don't you think, F? WE don't get to enjoy the party in the meantime. You guys ever think of that? You think we enjoy having to spend hours here checking, rather than posting on topics we like?

We'd like the guests to exercise good judgment and resolve their differences WITHOUT us having to get involved, so we can enjoy our beers!

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Yes indeedy! And mostly, you know, we DO! It is often best - as you frequently do - to let people sort out their differences themselves. It is only if it goes on too long or gets REALLY nasty that you need to stop circulating and step in! [img]smile.gif[/img] Go have a nice cold beer! I'll pay! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Cloudbringer]

I don't have the time now to post as much as I'd like, so let me just correct a FEW misconceptions here, particularly those of the newcomer, Aradia, and Kothoses.


FYI, THERE HAS BEEN NO "BANNING SPREE" I know of only ONE banning from this forum and and a few 2 wk suspensions (I only know of 2 at this time). Sorry, Koth but if you were told otherwise, you were grossly misinformed. In fact in all of IW, I'm aware of a handful of bannings (only two not in gaming forums)over the last 10 months.

ok to make a few points-

ONE: Nobody said sarcasm is forbidden. What they DID say was not to use it to demean or belittle another poster. It is not necessary to fire off rude and caustic barbs in order to make a point. Ronn and Ryanamur (and others!) have made that VERY clear with their own strong opinions and good debating skills. As has been said before.. a good counterpoint or point can stand on it's own merit without need of caustic comments to bolster it or belittle the other party so yours looks better.

TWO: IW is a different type of board than the others you are thinking of. It is family oriented and gaming based(in the words of it's owner and webmaster) and we have a LARGE number of people here under the age of 18, many in the 13-16 bracket. They are not forbidden to read or post here in this temporary forum but the majority won't even come here because they fear being torn apart by more experienced debaters who seem not to notice that others aren't as 'thick skinned' or well versed in the art of debate. The owner and mods of IW want ALL members to feel they can discuss issues if they choose to and have said it is wrong to purposely use language that will drive others away, not that strong opinions may not be voiced.

Koth, "flower power brigade"? Would that mean anyone who simply isn't an experienced user of acid wit to belittle opponents in debates?

THREE: This forum was NOT intended as a Serious Discussions forum but a TEMPORARY forum for WAR ON TERRORISM topics. Serious discussions and debates have been held in GD and until September 11, they did VERY well and without any major upheaval or complaints being made. I recall some very GOOD debates on controversial topics (religion, politics, war, stem cell research etc) that went off without anyone leaving the forum in anger or humiliation, and nobody was suspended or banned for misdoings in them! Why does it happen here? It completely baffles the admin of IW, I can tell you that. Right now, they have made and stated a few rules that they think will help alleviate the problem and some people feel the need to argue those rules and seemingly to challenge the owner's right and authority to make rules on his own forum.

I don't mean any disrepect to either Aradia or Koth, but if you haven't got the background here you can't know how or why the current situation has come up. The forum's history has been one of very congenial interaction even when people do not agree on very controversial issues. Debate was possible and even encouraged. And yes, tempers were sometimes lost, but apologies followed quickly... sincere apologies that were readily accepted. It seems that courtesy is being demeaned and rejected by some members who participate here these days and THAT is what offends me the most.


Cloudy

[Cloudbringer]

quote:

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Originally posted by Memnoch:


Yes, it's all fine and good to get involved in the lively arguments, lots of fun for the guests and all that! But it's a bit unfair and inconsiderate on the poor hosts who have spend the entire party jumping from group to group to break up fights, don't you think, F? WE don't get to enjoy the party in the meantime. You guys ever think of that? You think we enjoy having to spend hours here checking, rather than posting on topics we like?

We'd like the guests to exercise good judgment and resolve their differences WITHOUT us having to get involved, so we can enjoy our beers!

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AMEN and pass the pretzels! LOL
VERY valid point, Mems. I have seen at least one mod stop moderating this board for just that reason. The stress of putting out little brush fires all the time was more than the enjoyment factor of reading things here.

Cloudy