Germany at WAR

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barb:
Don't be tight to the Germans!

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?? What does this mean?

I like Germans. I've stayed in Berlin. Got German friends.

I'm intrigued by this development though. When momentous shifts such as this occur. We are living history. Somoething seemingly insignificant can slip by us, when hindsight will show it enourmous.

It's also indicative of the changing order of things. I said it was wierd and freaky, but change often can be.

Nothing against Germans at all.

[Zbyszek]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:


Actually if I'm not mistaken Germany was actually divided into fifths, (and Berlin quarters). Britain, France, America and Russia and... Poland. Poland's part became an annexation though. Dissolving the aforementioned Prussia and Silesia.

Also the huge nation of Poland-Lithuania was at one time the largest in Europe.

You could say the Poles have shafted others in their time. What went around came around.

Every nation could be labelled a rat fink by another nation whose interests collide.

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Hehe.. we have even our troops in Moscow a few times , but Russia was weak, and our troops didnt stay long. They burned once Kreml I think, and Russians can not forget it [img]smile.gif[/img]

Coming back to Silesia: there are two parts upper and lower. At the beginning of 20th century in lower Silesia there were a few Poles, a lot of Silesians - mix of Poles and Austrians, and Germans; but in upper Silesia over 50% of people wanted to join Poland after WW1. They made 3 uprisings between 1919 and 1922, and some part of upper Silesia joined Poland. Problem was that area is rich in coal, and France and UK wanted strong Germany against soviet Russia. They organized so called plebiscits(?) and supported Germans.
Prussia got Silesia from Austria after war in second part of 18th century. Austria got Silesia at the end of 16th and the beginning of 17th century - mostly. Before Silesia was in hands of many princes of Polish background - the same dynasty as first Polish kings. In fact Silesia (whole) was in Poland from the beginning - 10th century. In 12th century Poland was divided into many duches and some parts were not reunited in 14th century (Silesia nad Pomeranai in fact). The reason that Silesia was divided to many duches was, that princes divided Silesia further and further. However I agree that there were no Poles in lower Silesia in WW2 times - only Silesians and Germans.
Prussia - Prussia it is Brandenburgia, and Pomerania. But coming back to history, Brandenburgia got eastern part of Pomerania (now in Poland) at the end of 16th century. Before, this area was ruled by princes from the same dynasty what in Silesia - first Polish dynasty (and in fact eastern part of Pomerania was in Poland in 10-12th century, then we had division into duches). Then Brandenburgia lost Pomerania to Sweden in 17th century. Then Prussia got it back.
Easter Prussia - one part in Poland and second in Russia now. Was inhabited mostly by Prussians (mix of local people, Germans and Poles) - not Germans. After WW1 (silimarly like in Silesia) western countries organized plebiscits(?) and because of political reasons 90% of area went to Germany (more then 30% wanted Poland).
(It was our error, at the end of 16th century we let them have princes instead of incorporate them into Poland (this lands were ruled by Knights (like Knights of Malta), and when they dissolved their order we had right to incorporate country - because we were their feudal superior). Princes of East prussia swore loyalty to Polish crown but later when Poland was weaker princes took chance and later gave Eastern Prussia to Brandenburgia, and Brandenburgia became Prussia)

It is true that in WW2 times in that areas were a few Poles, or people who would want to join Poland - but it was result of German politics started in mid of 19th century - to germanize, to get ride of Poles. No need to mention what Hitler and his people done to people who supported Polish language etc in this area.

(there were about 12 important Russian duches in 10-12th century in area of todays Ukraine, we fought with them from the beginning ), they have been completely destroyed by Tatars in 13th century; duchy in Moscow started to get importance from 15th century)
We were united with Lithuania for a long time - until we lost our independence. With Lithuanians we had almost whole nowadays Belarussia and Ukraine - that time many parts of it were empty areas - also because of Tatars invasions. Upper and medium clases of Lithuans and Russians got Polonized. But because of religion, rising power of Moscow, and mostly because of treatment of peasants and decreasing their freedom we were loosing their souls. (nobody treated them serious, this caused that in 17th century weak Poland has extra problems - additionally to a lot of lost wars with Sweden, Russia and Turkey, we had peasant and Kozak uprisings in Ukraine (funny thing was that a part of Kozaks were Poles, who couldnt live in country ruled by polonized Russian lords) - uprisings were flood in blood - and helped start to form Ukrainian nationality). So modern Ukraininians have been generated by our opressions and this is reason why we had to fight all the time - people remember harm done to their fathers: action:revolt, slaughtering and burning; contraction: expedition, hanging and burning; contrcontraction: ....
Today (and after WW1) Lithuania needs to be independent, nobody needs bigger brother, everybody is afraid. Because a lot Lithuanians became Poles they fought for independent Poland, not Lithuania. Our greatest poets were born in todays Lithuania. In 19th century when there was no Poland our greatest poet has written: "Lithuania, my homeland..." he had to emmigrate to France because of Russian opressions and he was writing to ease our hardship (his mother was half-Jew btw), to give us hope. But he was thinking (and writing) about Poland, Lithuania was for him integral part of Poland. He was born and felt a Lithuanian, but at the first place Pole. No need to say he is and was not very liked in country Lithuania now and before WW2.
Vilnius (capital of Lithuania), Lvov (now Ukraine) and Cracow were three cultural captitols of Poland - before WW2, in 19th century, and before. In Vilnius after WW1 about 80% of population were Poles, rest :Jews, Ormians, Belarussians and Lithuanians. So it is no strange that we have taken Vilinus by force after WW1 - it was our homeland. But it is not strange that Lithuanians didny like it - we had no diplomatic contacts before wars because of Vilinus. Even now in area around Vilinus about 40% of people are Poles.

Thats history - a lot of areas of hate etc. Even now we dont sleep easy. We are afraid of Germans, other are afraid of us. And it is 50 years after war. 50 years after last burning, but it is not over.

Shafted?, you mean shifted?, we didnt shift people. The only shift was after WW2 and was ordered by Stalin. And I thank him. Because other way we could have smaller Balkans. The hate was the same. Reasons, harms and bills. They murdered us, we murdered them. Last war was driven by nationalisms in eastern part of Europe - like Balkans now. Generally everybody do what Germans have done, but not everybody know that SS organized special batalions and divisions of Lithuanians and Ukrainians. They were worse than most Germans, specially against civilian. As contractions Polish partisans burned and murdered whole Ukrainian villages. Polish partisans are our heros - they were fighting Germans, then Russians/Polish communists.

Polish army in 1946 and 47 finished with both of them - it means killed. If someone was caught, was tortured by security police. Polish partisans have monuments now, Ukrainians are building their monuments. People remember.

Berlin - we didnt have any part of Berlin, like France etc because Russians ruled. We had 2 armies fightig in eastern front and one of them in fact "liberated" Berlin with Russians troops. But the high command of that armies and all politics that created government after WW2 have been designed and choosen by Moscow. We get rid of them in mid 50-ties.

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Zbyszek:
Shafted?, you mean shifted?,

Berlin - we didnt have any part of Berlin,

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No, shafted. A pole up your date. Hence the pun. Poles using poles... Sorry, English language thing I guess.

I never said Berlin was. I said Berlin was divided into four, and Germany into five remember?

Thanks for the post though mate. I've read up on Eastern European history, but there was some additional information in your post, so cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I almost made it to Poland you know. I met some Polish girls in Berlin who invited me over there. I chose to go back to Singapore at the time ("money's too tight to mention...") and then stopped in Paris on the return instead of going back to Berlin.

Ah well. Next time. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Zbyszek]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:


No, shafted. A pole up your date. Hence the pun. Poles using poles... Sorry, English language thing I guess.

Ah well. Next time. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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I see... You are welcomed [img]smile.gif[/img]