The Bush Revolution

[Timber Loftis]

I agree with Yorick. I try to always be polite and considerate. I act diplomatically and never offend. I always carefully weigh all factors before stating something in haste. I check and recheck all facts. I expect my elected officials to act according to the same principles. Is it wrong of me to expect my leaders to at least behave as cordially and politely as I myself do?

[Djinn Raffo]

Careful what you wish for John D.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Careful what you wish for John D.

Well, Y2K let me down, I doubt there's a nearby Meteor, nobody wants a full scale Thermal Nuclear exchange, so the only hope I see is a new Dark Age to clear out the deadwood on this planet.

Edit: had to break to deal with a customer

At the rate we, Humans are birth'n babes coupled with the advances in Medical treatments, we're quickly out pacing what this planet can do for us, resources are being eaten up, space in running out, we got to cut back on the number of human parsites sucking off the teet of Mother Earth. The Automobile sure isn't as good natural preditor of humans.

See and people thunked I was an uncarring for nature kinda guy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-18-2004, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[Timber Loftis]

John D, I lurve you.

[ 11-18-2004, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Yorick]

[quote]Originally posted by Azred:

Originally posted by Yorick: I would have to unfortunately disagree with you. It is a person with a positive self-image and who doesn't need the opinions of others for self-worth who doesn't care a fig what the rest of the world thinks. An individualist doesn't have to have a highly positive public opinion poll result in order to live life fully.

It has nothing to do with self worth and everything to do with acting in a manner that affects the said people. American policy affects other countries. (See: Cold War, Iraq, Nuclear holocaust in Japan for further reading.) This then affects others policies towards you, which can trigger changes in your nation that lead to political issues - see: World trade Centre destruction/creation of homeland security dept.

You do not live in an island. Trade is important to the USA. Need I remind you you outsource jobs to India? Need I remind you your trade deficit with China is unthinkably large. Chinese policy influences American policy and you would be naive to think otherwise. Have you been following the recent speeches in Taiwan and the lack of US support for Taiwans proclaimations of independence? Need I remind you that America is a land of immigrant VOTERS and CONSUMERS who are influenced by Americans treatment of their homeland? See: Israel and Jewish America.

It has nothing to do with self worth, and everything to do with actions. America is no longer isolationist in foreign policy and has not been since WWII. I suggest those that do not care what the world thinks WAKE UP to concepts of international diplomacy and international relations and study nations that have ignored these in the past. He that ignores history repeats it.

You could start with GERMANY and how Wilhelm ruined decades of careful international relations, alliances and manouvering Bismark had orchestrated, and how Germany fell from an ascendant position in Europe following disasterous wars, that included Hitler thumbing his nose at international opinion. (He obviously didn't base his self worth on that now did he?)

When it unites, Europe will be richer, more populous and in a better location to influence global events. I would think it IMPERATIVE that America does not create an enemy where an ally once was. This is a very real possibility. Alliances have historically shifted. Read up on Bismark again. Fascinating.

Think about a world in which China, India, Europe, South America, Africa, Britain, Saudi Arabia and the Arab league etc were all actively antagonistic, both economically and militarily. Do you really want such a reality? Europe, China, India and Britain are all nuclear.

OF COURSE IT MATTERS WHAT THE WORLD THINKS!

Surely you have learned this with Iraq and Afgahnistan?? If one more war on a new front opens up, you will need the draft because your army is too small. Doesn't this ring a bell? 455 billion dollar budget deficit due to the war. Doesn't this mean anything to you?

Since other world leaders don't consult popular opinion before speaking in public, why should ours?

Er...they often do. International politics mate. Been around a long time.

[ 11-18-2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: [QB] So Yorick how did you vote? or your money vote? what about your feelings? when did they cast votes? Votes is what counts in an election or have you forgotten in the re-count thread you want to re-count votes?

Oh really? And how does political advertising get paid for? I suppose votes paid for the most expensive election campaign in history now did it? Please. Why do you think the poor vote for tax cuts for the rich? Why do you think all the candidates were billionaires? Money makes the world go round John, and money wins the election, and money influences global policy. So yes, money buys votes.

Stop buying our exports, stop exporting to us! Go ahead make my day cut the Largest consumer in the world out of your bussiness, just don't come complaining to me when you can't meet payroll, can't pay the bills because you decided to quit selling to your biggest customer. Stop American tourism, don't let us spend our money in your countries! Lordy, Lordy, I've been saying for years I look forward to the next Dark ages.

The largest consumer base in the world is China, followed by India and then Europe. America has 280 million people John. Not even a third of either China or India. Your buying power has been the strong US dollar. If you haven't noticed, that has been falling of late due to things like wars and 455 billion dollar deficits. A weak US dollar is only good for: EXPORTS.

Nowhere did I say it wasn't important to the rest of the world, I said the rest of the world has no "say" in our elections any more then I as a US citizen has a "say" in the elections of your native country.

Ah, but you do have a say in the elections of other countries. Iraq, Afgahnistan for startes. US policy is affecting the British election. If you are using Americans influence over other nations elections, then you just proved me right. Thanks John. Have a nice day.

Case closed.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: [QB] So Yorick how did you vote? or your money vote? what about your feelings? when did they cast votes? Votes is what counts in an election or have you forgotten in the re-count thread you want to re-count votes?

Oh really? And how does political advertising get paid for? I suppose votes paid for the most expensive election campaign in history now did it? Please. Why do you think the poor vote for tax cuts for the rich? Why do you think all the candidates were billionaires? Money makes the world go round John, and money wins the election, and money influences global policy. So yes, money buys votes.

Stop buying our exports, stop exporting to us! Go ahead make my day cut the Largest consumer in the world out of your bussiness, just don't come complaining to me when you can't meet payroll, can't pay the bills because you decided to quit selling to your biggest customer. Stop American tourism, don't let us spend our money in your countries! Lordy, Lordy, I've been saying for years I look forward to the next Dark ages.

The largest consumer base in the world is China, followed by India and then Europe. America has 280 million people John. Not even a third of either China or India. Your buying power has been the strong US dollar. If you haven't noticed, that has been falling of late due to things like wars and 455 billion dollar deficits. A weak US dollar is only good for: EXPORTS.

Nowhere did I say it wasn't important to the rest of the world, I said the rest of the world has no "say" in our elections any more then I as a US citizen has a "say" in the elections of your native country.

Ah, but you do have a say in the elections of other countries. Iraq, Afgahnistan for startes. US policy is affecting the British election. If you are using Americans influence over other nations elections, then you just proved me right. Thanks John. Have a nice day.

Case closed. [/QUOTE]Once agian Yorick I see you didn't answer a single question asked of you, instead you dodged and spun. But to show how nice a guy I am I'll answer your questions and address the points you raised as asked and as raised no dodge or spin.
question 1) Oh really what, how did your money vote?, how did you vote?, or your feelings? were the questions ask by me. So what do you mean by Oh really?
2)Money donated to the campiagns pays for advertising, advertising deigned to GET VOTES for the candidate.
3) Of course votes didn't pay for the advertising, nobody said votes did pay for the advertising. Advertising is designed to bring votes in to the candidates on election day not for exit polls, or for pre-election polls, election day is the only poll that counts that is why all the money was spent, to win on election day in the offical election held in each precenct in the country.
4) I don't know why the poor voted for anything, I don't know why anybody voted for anybody. I know I voted for President Bush because he gave me a tax cut when he said he would. He stood and delievered. I and my family are hardly rich by the standards used to judge who are the rich in the USA.
5) They are not all Billionaires! Although this maybe a cultural thing, IIRC I read from one of the UK members, what we in the USA call a Million they call a Billion. So if that is the case, then so what if they are, in a free country where you can make all the money you can make and the government doesn't get to tell you how much money you can make. The candidates can be what ever they are.
Point A)Nobody said money didn't make the world go around, of course money buys votes if it didn't the campaings wouldn't have spent as much of it as they did! The campiagns poured massive amounts of money to get VOTES, votes of citizens of the USA, not citizens of other countries in this world. It is the votes of the citizens of this country that had the final "say", which if you remember was the proposition I stated to begin with. Then you went off on the tagnet of other countries citizen had "say" because they had money and political influence to peddle. So I ask you, if you are able to answer the questions as asked, How much of the money spent on the USA's presidental campiagn was spent to get the money and political ifluence from citizens of countries other then the USA? How much money was spent to get the votes of same? On 20 jan., 2005 or there abouts, the man who is sworn into the office of President of the USA will he have won the most votes from around the world? Or will he have won the electoral college votes as prescribed in a manner decided by the State legislatures?

I have to go back to work I'll finish answering the questions you asked, and addressing the points you raised later.

PointB)I said the largest consumer, now remember all the arguements about how the USA is distroying the planet because we consume everything in larger amounts then everybody else. Well we do, you can't have the USA being the largest consumer when it fits your needs then not the largest consumer when it doesn't fit your needs. Now after I dealt with the emotional part of the arguement, I'll move the the fact part. I said largest consumer! not largest consumer base there is a differance. I don't know if you j=have any training in economics and bussiness or not, I admitt I have no formal trianing in either, but those that do will back what I am about to write. If you sell computers for $100 and you have two customer bases "C" & "U". "C" has 5,000,000 people in the base, those people have $10 each to spend. "U" has 1,000,000 people in the base, those people have $500 each to spend. (if you notice that is only 1/5 not the 1/4 it actually is see I'm such a nice guy I'm going to spot you 5%)
WHich one of those two bases will you sell to? Which one of them is going to be the Larger consumer? "C" or "U"? It is simple math to figure the numbers out. Yes, the weak dollar helps USA Exports, it did that in the early 80's, in the 70's and will do so again, but while you are happily singing a joyious song of showing me up, did the USA run a trade surplus or Defeict the last month? or the months before that? or the Years before that? how about the decade before that? I'll save you the Time Yorick, just to be nice to you, it was a defiect, there has been a trade defiect for as long as I can remember for the most part since the late 60's early 70's. What you don't see is a weak dollar causes the other countries to lose exports and US dollars coming in, it hurts their economies in the long run. Look at Japan, in the late 70's and early 80's Japan was exporting right and left to the USA, the dollar went down against the Yen. What happpend we didn't buy as much from Japan, we started buying from South Korea, or other places. Japan's economy has stagnated hardly moved at all in nearly 20 years. What has the USA economy done why it has gone UP and down and up again, in short it has gone through the Normal HEALTHY economic cycles. In the 80's the joke was the Japanese and the German had really won WWII because their economies were growing and so strong, The USA had to have their products. Well guess what happened their products got to expensive to buy we found others willing to sell for less, in an effort to STOP loosing market share, fancy words for MONEY, They built factories over here in the USA, because it cost them less to build. Employeed our people not theirs, we bought the products built here in the USA, because our people had the jobs now. When the USA economy sneezes the rest of the world's economies catch a cold.

Now here another thing for you to thunk on, I call it the 80/20 rule, I'm sure there is a fancy college edumacated phrase for it. 80% of most bussiness comes from 20% for their customers. You thunk it over, the rich have more money more money means they will spend more. Now back to the tax question You bet you sweet bippy I want the rich to have tax cuts, the more money they have to blow the more money there is for me to get. I don't know if you remember the thread about how the rich in the USA have so much buying power compared to the rest of the economic classes. Well everybody was saying that's not fair, I say bring the rich on I have something to sell them. Let you in on a little fact about the taxes here in the USA the top 5% pay over 50% of the taxes, so don't give me this fair share crap.

more later:

Point C) I wrote:"I said the rest of the world has no "say" in our elections any more then I as a US citizen has a "say" in the elections of your native country." I didn't say the USA as a country has no Influence I said I as a US Citizen, that is not the same as the USA has no influence. I'm not using any influence over any country!! never said I was, did, or would.

Now Yo, that is how you close a case!

[ 11-18-2004, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[Yorick]

You're completely missing the point.

[Azred]

Originally posted by Yorick: Of course it matters what the world thinks!

I believe I see one source of miscommunication occuring here. I am fusing interpersonal dynamics with international politics; always a misstep.
On a personal level, one must live wihtout concern for what the world thinks, as long as one is not causing harm. On a political level, I agree that no country lives in a vacuum; thus, international policy need by treated with velvet gloves. National policy is another matter entirely, mind you, and may be conducted without consulting one's neighbors.

You do make several finely-tuned points, though. History does teach the error of thumbing one's nose at the world. I cannot disagree with that. It is simply a shame that apparently nations must conduct themselves according to the directives of other nations. Nature of the beast....

Are we certain that China conducts itself thusly? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Yorick: You're completely missing the point.

WHAT POINT? Yo, you have switched, fipped, flopped, and spun your way around. You bring up a point when asked questions about your point, and how you point works you move, dodge, slide to something totally differant. When your questions are answered you flee to the 'ole you are missing the point.

Answer the questions I asked you earlier as I asked them, I used plain simple words straight to the point no flipping/flopping/ dodging/twisting/turning. I answered your questions, and I did so with statements not another question. Answering a question with a question is an arguement trick that only works if the person you are trying to pull that on is afraid to answer, I ain't afraid of man nor beast.