Jerry! Jerry!

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Khazadman Risen: I find Kerry's response to the swift boat vets to be laughable. His supporters have spent tens of millions of dollars, if not more, bashing Bush. But let these guys come along with only about one hundred thousand bucks worth of backing and Kerry starts threatening publishers and tv stations with his jack booted attornies. Bush has been putting up with this stuff for about five years and you don't see his attornies trying to supress anyones freedom of speech. I guess that says alot about Kerry, huh? Well you know the old saying: if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I don't even know why people even bothered to pay these douchebags any attention. It doesn't even have to be true, but even if these Swift Boat Veterans are exposed as alien invaders ( how's that for a Southpark scenario )trying to keep Bush in office because he'd deal worse with their upcoming invasion, there will *still* be people around who Want To Believe (and I'm not referring to aliens here, but to Kerry's alleged serviced record lies ).
There was an item on the news recently in which a vet was saying that he can't vote for Kerry because he keeps "thinking of that image with Kerry sitting next to Jane Fonda." Now, the image of Kerry sitting right next to Jane Fonda was fake (as we all know by now), but he's made up his mind regardless.
Either way, I think these veterans mainly take issue with Kerry because of his statements after the war, not because they "genuinely" think he's a fraud.

Just in case anyone here actually thinks that those Swift Boat Veterans aren't making things up as they go, one of their frontrunners (wasn't he the only one of them who actually even served with Kerry? Not sure) was actually caught in a lie, contradicting his version nowadays with what he initially reported and was added to his military record. But I guess someone desperate enough to find more dirt on Kerry will simply decide not to let facts get in the way towards getting Bush re-elected (and vice versa, if such a disclaimer was even necessary).

Records Counter A Critic Of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered Republican, of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one of us as we were trying to put our lives together."

Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.

The incident featured prominently in an anti-Kerry television ad produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth earlier this month. "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says Van Odell, a gunner on PCF-23, one of the boats that came to the rescue of the stricken boat. "I know. I was there."

The Bronze Star controversy is also a major focus of an anti-Kerry book by John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," which will hit No. 2 on The Post's bestseller list this weekend. The book accuses Kerry of "fleeing the scene" and lying repeatedly about his role.

Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann, the Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says he has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing votes to Kerry at a crucial time.

The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were signed by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in Vietnam. But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.

Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than $450,000 over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry, who backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for president.

Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.

© 2004 The Washington Post Company

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...v=rss_politics

[ 08-23-2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: So saying something against your chosen candidate qualifies these other Vietnam Veterans as "Biggest Douschbags in the Universe". How very tolerant of opposing views you are, Chewbacca.

Thanks. I try. I do wonder how making a little Southpark inspired joke to express my disagreement makes me more or less tolerant. [/QUOTE]For starters, I don't watch South Park, so I didn't realize your comment was made tongue-in-cheek. I thought you were serious, and I did base the rest of my comments on that assumption.

I apologize for my misunderstanding of your comments.

I will add (just for the record) that you were correct when you said my comments were an observation. They were that and nothing more and - AFAIK - I don't need the permission of anybody to make observations based on the posts and comments of IW members.

As always, though, the MODS are welcome to correct me if that assumption is wrong.

[ 08-23-2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: quote: Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Remember one of Bushes campaign slogans 4 years ago was the he was a 'Uniter not a divider'. I think that one has gone over as well as Dad's 'Read my lips..' It seems Americans are as divided on the issues of the day as I can recall in my lifetime.

"It seems Americans are as divided on the issues of the day as I can recall in my lifetime." Americans are divided and dividing for their own reasons not because President Bush is trying to divide them. [/QUOTE]I never suggested President Bush was the cause of the dividing.

I suggested President Bush was a failure for not being a Uniter as he projected in his original Presidential campaign.

You acknowledge in your post that Americans are as divided as ever. Do you agree then that President Bush has failed to live up to his campaign pledge of being a UNITER and NOT a DIVIDER? [/QUOTE]He can't unite people that don't wish to unite, Look at the no child left behind's first education budget. It was writen by Sen. Ted Kennedy, the dem. Sr. Senator from Mass. But President Bush gets blamed for it, when President Bush gave almost a freehand to the opposition to comeup with a solution they both could work with. Look at the number of people still saying President Bush "stole" the election even though every news orginization that went to Florida to count the vote said the same thing Bush won Florida.

Do you remember a few months ago when the prison photos came out some of President Bush's critics went so far as to blame him personally, saying he was personally responsible for the atrocities. Therefore unworthy of their vote, yet the vast majority of those critics will end up voting for a man that admitted to committing, burning of villages, firing in free fire zones(violation of GC) and the like, Witnessing other "atrocities". How can anyone unite somebody that will do that. Hold President Bush responsible for something that happened 7,000 mile away from him and 6-8 degrees fo seperation from him, yet not hold things that are much worse against a man that was there and comitted the act by his own hand.

So no I don't agree that he didn't live up to his pledge, he tried but he can't be held responible for people that don't wish to work with him.

EDIT: I forgot Stem cell research, until President Bush funded the research there was no federal funding for it, the President before him did not fund SCR. President Bush worked out a compromise so funding and work could go ahead. Yet if you listened to the Dems at and after their convention you'd never know President Bush was the first to fund SCR. Not his predicessor(sp?) President Bush found middle ground that allowed the research to be funded. Now which sounds like a uniter to you, the man that found middle ground or the side that ignors presenting the facts to make it look like their opposition din't do what he did, you make the call?

[ 08-23-2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]