US treatment of prisoners (actual video footage)

[Timber Loftis]

Random acts of individuals is far different than systemic torture, Rokenn. I'm sure I don't need to point that out to you. The comparison is cute, but warps the issue.

[Barry the Sprout]

The fact that this torture and humiliation is not systemic (assuming it is not) is not the issue. It is still detrimental to world peace, let alone peace in the region, and it is also indicative of the wider perception of Iraqi's in the eyes of American soldiers. That is not saying that the majority of American soldiers support this kind of thing, but that they are all presented with the reasons for doing so. Does it not worry you that these are the kind of people the army culture is producing? Even if they are being produced in small numbers I'd want to know why personally...

[Timber Loftis]

Why? It's obvious. Silver souls are aggressive by nature -- most I've met have a bit of a bully in them. It's the type of person that is drawn to the job that creates these problems. It's why there will be instances of bullying among police forces and warriors everywhere. It's a culture thing.

Sure, bemoan human nature all you want. It is regrettable. But, given a statistically significant number (like the number of troops in Iraq), it is inevitable. The key is that the system must squash it like a bug when it is found -- leaving no question as to what is unacceptable.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Sure, bemoan human nature all you want. It is regrettable. But, given a statistically significant number (like the number of troops in Iraq), it is inevitable. The key is that the system must squash it like a bug when it is found -- leaving no question as to what is unacceptable.

You got that right TL.

Now on to the fun for those that are rejoicing in their own minds that the US military did something wrong. I feel it is only right to apply the same standard to them, their countries, their whatever's 6-12 out of 115,000 plus is what .006%. So that is the standard your glee sets. Hmmmmmm JDH wonders to self what the crime rates/Criminal populations are in the world and is willing to bet they far excede .006% of the populations of any country.

[Djinn Raffo]

[Faceman]

Originally posted by John D Harris: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Sure, bemoan human nature all you want. It is regrettable. But, given a statistically significant number (like the number of troops in Iraq), it is inevitable. The key is that the system must squash it like a bug when it is found -- leaving no question as to what is unacceptable.

You got that right TL.

Now on to the fun for those that are rejoicing in their own minds that the US military did something wrong. I feel it is only right to apply the same standard to them, their countries, their whatever's 6-12 out of 115,000 plus is what .006%. So that is the standard your glee sets. Hmmmmmm JDH wonders to self what the crime rates/Criminal populations are in the world and is willing to bet they far excede .006% of the populations of any country. [/QUOTE]I do agree with you. Although there's frequent reports about police abuse in our media, I have recently witnessed several situations which made me extremely impressed by the professional attitude of our police force. It's always just a small amount of black sheep that give the force a bad name.
However, these are the guys that make the front page and in this case it's a major disaster.
The Iraqi people don't care if it was "just 0.0002%" of their population tortured by "just 0.006%" of the American force.
Like most Americans won't concede that "only 0.001%" of their population were killed by "only 2 lousy Arab terrorists".
I am not comparing these two events on a quality basis, just noting that it makes you mad when you look at a front page stating that fellow countrymen have been killed/tortured/mutilated for no apparent reason. And you don't stop to think that it's only a small number of crazies who did that.

Whoever DID torture this Iraqis will also be responsible for intensified firefights and more casualties on both sides.

[Timber Loftis]

Djinn, nice cartoon. Very poignant.

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Djinn, nice cartoon. Very poignant.

And very true for the "aggressors" ( [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) as well.

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Why? It's obvious. Silver souls are aggressive by nature -- most I've met have a bit of a bully in them. It's the type of person that is drawn to the job that creates these problems. It's why there will be instances of bullying among police forces and warriors everywhere. It's a culture thing. Sure, bemoan human nature all you want. It is regrettable. But, given a statistically significant number (like the number of troops in Iraq), it is inevitable. The key is that the system must squash it like a bug when it is found -- leaving no question as to what is unacceptable.

Actually it is not only that the job as you say draws bad apples, but more that the job creates bad apples. Go read up on the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment. Where people were randomly assigned the role of 'guard' and 'prisoner' and knew it was all not real. Within 5 days the experiment was cut short and ended because things and spiraled down so quickly. As I recall 3 or 4 of the 'prisoners' had emotional breakdowns due to the experience. Even though all participants had been given extensive psychological tests prior to the experiment to make sure there were no bad eggs or fragile personality types.

NPR also did a show on this just yesterday which had some good discussion in it about the subject.


Here also is a good paper about the experiment and it's fallout (or lack there of)

[Timber Loftis]

Haven't time to read those now, but I've seen them before -- I'll check them out a bit later.

When you think about the types of jobs warriors/protectors are asked to perform, you kind of want to draw aggressive personality types. It's not just that those people are drawn to the job, it's also that the job fits certain personality types. It's hard to sort the bad eggs out until something specific happens.