Hundreds of thousands march in Washington

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: ::nods:: Of course, adoption is preferable to abortion, certainly. And partial-birth abortion is a horrid procedure. But I feel that adoption-abortion should be the woman's choice.

And should we have the right to kill our elderly parents when they get old an inconvenience us? If the husband dies when the child is three, should they be allowed to kill their child?

And also, what of the father? If you want fathers to start taking responsibilty don't remove the choice aspect from their life. The child was created by two. I do know of a women that aborted AGAINST the will of the father who would have been prepared to rear the child alone. How is this tolerable in a humane society. The father was left with the grief of losing a child to a vindictive woman who then left their marriage.

It cuts both ways. At the moment it's all "The Womans choice" so of course prospective fathers are less careful.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Which is worse, do you suppose? Having an abortion or abandoning a child in a garbage can?

An interesting question, actually. I'd say an abortion is better because the child has no consciousness yet (presumably). Nevertheless, I don't see that this rebuts Yorick's example -- who didn't leave the child in a garbage can. [/QUOTE]He painted a rosy example of a community willing to raise a child. I'm saying that, sadly, this isn't always the case. [/QUOTE]And why not? These are choice humans are in control of. [/QUOTE]Why not? Because it doesn't happen! If it DID, people wouldn't feel the need to have abortions, would they?

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: ::nods:: Of course, adoption is preferable to abortion, certainly. And partial-birth abortion is a horrid procedure. But I feel that adoption-abortion should be the woman's choice.

And should we have the right to kill our elderly parents when they get old an inconvenience us? If the husband dies when the child is three, should they be allowed to kill their child?

And also, what of the father? If you want fathers to start taking responsibilty don't remove the choice aspect from their life. The child was created by two. I do know of a women that aborted AGAINST the will of the father who would have been prepared to rear the child alone. How is this tolerable in a humane society. The father was left with the grief of losing a child to a vindictive woman who then left their marriage.

It cuts both ways. At the moment it's all "The Womans choice" so of course prospective fathers are less careful. [/QUOTE]Let's try this. When do you feel a human being is created, Yorick? At what precise moment? When sperm meets egg?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: Funny, I know a few women who had abortions, and while they're not proud of what they did, they realize it was the right choice, and would make that choice again if needed.

Yes that is funny. Those sort of women are few and far between. How many did you say you knew? How old are they? How long ago were the abortions?

Check with feminist movements which declare abortion a disaster for women. What society makes bearing life an inconvenience??? Where is the support? The edification of the highest role in life? What state are we in, when people are afraid of experiencing what every parent says is the most wonderful moment on their life??

Abortion =
Abort joy
Abort wonderment
Abort new challenges
Abort new perspective
Abort untold happiness
Abort fears, struggles, sucesses, laughter, tears
Abort a child
Abort life

Adopt your child, give your child away, involve your parents in raising your child, get involved in a church that will help, anything, anything other than killing your unborn child.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: ::nods:: Of course, adoption is preferable to abortion, certainly. And partial-birth abortion is a horrid procedure. But I feel that adoption-abortion should be the woman's choice.

And should we have the right to kill our elderly parents when they get old an inconvenience us? If the husband dies when the child is three, should they be allowed to kill their child?

And also, what of the father? If you want fathers to start taking responsibilty don't remove the choice aspect from their life. The child was created by two. I do know of a women that aborted AGAINST the will of the father who would have been prepared to rear the child alone. How is this tolerable in a humane society. The father was left with the grief of losing a child to a vindictive woman who then left their marriage.

It cuts both ways. At the moment it's all "The Womans choice" so of course prospective fathers are less careful. [/QUOTE]Let's try this. When do you feel a human being is created, Yorick? At what precise moment? When sperm meets egg? [/QUOTE]Yep. When the egg is fertilised. When life begins.

When does a seed become a plant?

[Timber Loftis]

Yep. When the egg is fertilised. When life begins.

I strongly disagree. Even if there is a soul, I think it would not enter until the creature has brain activity. If we can euthanize someone who's a vegetable, the fetus who has not yet had a thought is equally "unalive." Besides, I know too much biology to accept this -- I'd at least like for it to look different than a fish's fetus before I start calling it human.

Yes that is funny. Those sort of women are few and far between. How many did you say you knew? How old are they? How long ago were the abortions?

I also have a different experience here. I have found that the majority who have shared their experience with me consider it the right choice, even though it causes them sadness. The ones who are the least affected are the ones who took the morning after pill (which has been available for a lot longer than it's been legal).

The edification of the highest role in life?

I have two problems with this:
1. I think that developing good humans is far more important than simply birthing more humans. I am in favor of quality over quantity -- and you know my views about overpopulation support the same perspective. Any sow can pop out a kid -- it don't make you a special and beautiful flower. But, it takes a lot of effort and caring to be a good parent. There's a big distinction here.

2. I don't want to aggrandize childbirthing to the point that it overshadows the other accomplishments women can make. I know a wonderful trial attorney who is getting high marks at her job and becoming a very skilled prosecutor. She does a lot of good in this world. If she got pregnant tomorrow and decided, "You know what, I'm not ready yet," I would fully understand (oh, did I mention she's my wife?). There are contributions women can make to society that are vastly superior to popping out another mouth to feed. As I said, it's their choice.

[pritchke]

I think a big part of the problem with abortion lies with society and the community. While the staunch conservatives preach about no abortion after the child is born it is abandoned by those same conservatives.

Yorick is correct however Where there is life there is hope and it is possible that it may have a better life than those who have not been given up. There is always a chance of being adopted.

I also believe the father should have a more of a role in making such a decision especially if he is willing to take it in a raise it by himself. Our courts tend to favor women even if they are some criminal or not fit to take care of a child. Fathers do win but they have to fight a hell of alot harder to get anywhere with the courts.

The worst the woman gets from having a baby is a few stretch marks and maybe a little discomfort at times especially towards the end of term. Big deal, than again that is another problem with our society having to look so prim and proper.

There is also the factor of no longer accepting responsibility for ones actions. We tend to take the easy way out even if it may not be the right way. This is yet another growing problem with society and the courts and laws seem to grow slacker all the time.

It is the woman's body but she has a life growing inside of her that is not really a part of her body but another body. By giving into abortion we are treating unborn children the same as they were parasites. I mean a tape worm is a living thing and just because it is in your body does not mean it is a part of it. Abortion means we place the same value on an unborn child as we would a tape worm. We tend to treat animals better than people. God forbid anyone do anything to a puppy we will put them up for adoption yet an unborn child we will pluck from the womb like a leech on the skin.

That all said there may be cases were abortion should be allowed. They should be taken on case by case scenario however. In Timbers wife's case they could easily put it up for adoption it isn't as if she would need to stop working. I think the Bhaal in Timber would come out and he would want to keep his mortal prodigy after it was born if this were the case.

I had a cousin who get pregnant and wanted a career as a nurse. She put the baby up for adoption and it was adopted by her Aunt who could not have children. Anyway she still got to see her child, know how it was doing, and she became a very successful nurse. Every thing turned out well except now the Aunt is now dieing with breast cancer which is sad. But that child who is now about 15 was a blessing in disguise to that Aunt. If my cousin had aborted she would have regretted it. The thing that was different about this situation was she was adopted in the family. The mother did not have to have regrets, and if the child ever goes searching she will not be hard to find.

[ 04-29-2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Jerr Conner]

I think a big part of the problem with abortion lies with society and the community. While the staunch conservatives preach about no abortion after the child is born it is abandoned by those same conservatives.

Yep, I said as much earlier, so I'm in agreeance.

As for choices, I'd like to agree with both Illumina and Yorick. The Rosy picture is far from what we see; however it is attainable. Just rare.

It's far easier to look at what's good and ignore what isn't considered good.

[ 04-29-2004, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Jerr Conner ]

[Timber Loftis]

Note: Agreeance is only a word if you are President of the U.S.

The point wasn't that me and my wife could adopt, the point was that if she got preggers and did not want to have the kid at the time, I would consent to her decision. I feel she'll ultimately do a lot of good for the world (my job = make $$, her job = save our mortal souls), probably more good than the good done by raising one more kid.

And as for the Bhaalspawn comment, well... erm.... I don't know what to say. I'm probably as much a megalomaniac as Bhaal, but without the evil cruelty. For instance, I wouldn't treat my kids like Bhaal did -- have 20 kids and make them kill each other to the last one.

[Gnarf]

Finally, I would like to propose two scenarios. Woman A gets pregnant at age 18, accidentally, but her religion forbids abortion. She drops out of school and raises a child whom she resents. Woman B gets pregnant at age 18, but realizes that she is in no position to raise a child. She aborts it and waits until she's thirty to raise a child in a loving environment. Which child is better off?

I'm not quite sure how it's like to be aborted, or to be dead, so it's a bit hard to tell.

Let's try this. When do you feel a human being is created, Yorick? At what precise moment? When sperm meets egg?

We don't really know for sure when it is, do we? I'd say we may just as well not kill off what may be human beings then.