Democrats and Republicans

[Gab]

Originally posted by Sythe: quote: Originally posted by Gab: I geuss a Liberal or Democrat. Communism is too socalist for my tastes and I'm not really a Conservative. I wonder why a lot of people here seem to love the Republicans. I do not at all like them.

Cool finnaly someone on my side!

I've found out that Democrats tend to be


34% Liberal

25% Moderate

28% Haven't Thought About It

20% African Americans

12% Hispanic

28% Catholic

19% from Union homes

38% from homes with annual income under $20,000

60% female

24% senior citizens

Tend to Be:

Urban Dwellers

Laborers

Socially Disadvantaged

Minorities (I'm one of em and proud!)


And on the Republicans

67% Conservative

16% Moderate

12% Haven't Thought About It

2% African Americans

5% Hispanic

20% Catholic

12% from Union homes

20% from homes with annual income under $20,000

49% female

22% senior citizens

Tend to Be:

White collar

Upper Class

Straight White Males


So really Democrats are more diverese. I don't see why be republican. Change is usually a good thing. Keeping to traditon is not always good in my opinion. I'm going to visit this forum more often now. [/QUOTE]Actually one of the reasons I don't like the Republicans is that they tend to be more agressive and start more wars. They would invade Syria and Iran if they could. I orginally supported the war in Iraq but now I'm against it because there's choas in Iraq and a few people getting killed almost every day.

Depending on the issues and my mood, I think I'm all of them.

[Seraph]

Well, I tend to be more Moderate (with the exception of states rights, with I am a supporter of) with Libertarian tendencies. In particular I tend to think of anything that involves the federal government directly affecting US citizens to be a bad thing.

Actually one of the reasons I don't like the Republicans is that they tend to be more aggressive and start more wars.

Franklin D. Roosevelt - Democrat - Had US destroyers and German U-boats slugging it out months before Pearl Harbor. Got Hitler so upset that the US holds the distinction as being the ONLY nation that Germany declared war against in W.W.II.

Harry S. Truman - Democrat - Was primarily responsible for the US involvement in the Korean conflict. (The conflict wasn't ended until Ike was president).

John F. Kennedy - Democrat - Tried to invade Cuba, started sending advisors to Vietnam.

Lyndon B. Johnson - Democrat - "Americanized" the Vietnam War, responsible for 350,000+ troops being sent to Vietnam. Invaded the Dominican Republic in April 1965.

[ 10-18-2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Seraph ]

[Gab]

Originally posted by Seraph: Well, I tend to be more Moderate (with the exception of states rights, with I am a supporter of) with Libertarian tendencies. In particular I tend to think of anything that involves the federal government directly affecting US citizens to be a bad thing. quote: Actually one of the reasons I don't like the Republicans is that they tend to be more aggressive and start more wars.

Franklin D. Roosevelt - Democrat - Had US destroyers and German U-boats slugging it out months before Pearl Harbor. Got Hitler so upset that the US holds the distinction as being the ONLY nation that Germany declared war against in W.W.II.

Harry S. Truman - Democrat - Was primarily responsible for the US involvement in the Korean conflict. (The conflict wasn't ended until Ike was president).

John F. Kennedy - Democrat - Tried to invade Cuba, started sending advisors to Vietnam.

Lyndon B. Johnson - Democrat - "Americanized" the Vietnam War, responsible for 350,000+ troops being sent to Vietnam. Invaded the Dominican Republic in April 1965. [/QUOTE]I didn't say that the Democrats aren't agressive. I said that Republicans have proven to be more agressive. US had to get involved in WW2 or the Germans and Japanese might have won the war. Yes I agree that Harry S. Truman and Lyndon Johnson were agressive. Kennedy wasn't very agressive and only tried to invade Cuba during the Cuban Missle Crises.

The Vietnam War was acually started back in 1958 when Dwight D. Eisenhower(Republican) was president. Kennedy wanted the troops to be pulled out of Vietnam but that didn't happen because he got asassinated. When Richard Nixon(Republican) became the president in 1969, he had more troops pulled into Vietnam and there was more heavy bombing.

Ronald Regean had a ton of money spent the armed forces during the end of the Cold War that it almost bankrupted the U.S. economy. Look at George W. Bush. He has invaded 2 counties (Afghanistan and Iraq). He would probbably invade more countries if he could.

Face it, the Republicans are more agressive.

[ 10-18-2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Gab ]

[Seraph]

US had to get involved in WW2 or the Germans and Japanese might have won the war.

How does that change the fact that the US took a very agressive stance vs. the Germans?

Kennedy wasn't very agressive and only tried to invade Cuba during the Cuban Missle Crises.

The Bay of Pigs invasion (April 1961) predates the Cuban missle crises (Oct 1962).

The Vietnam War was acually started back in 1958 when Dwight D. Eisenhower(Republican) was president. Kennedy wanted the troops to be pulled out of Vietnam but that didn't happen because he got asassinated. When Richard Nixon(Republican) became the president in 1969, he had more troops pulled into Vietnam and there was more heavy bombing.

On May 8th 1960 there were 685 non-combat troops to Vietnam.
On Feb. 7th 1962, American military strength reaches 4,000.
On Nov. 15th 1963 (a week before Kennedy was shot) there were 15,000 troops in Vietnam. 1,000 of which were schedualed to be withdrawn.
At the end of 1964, US troop strength was 23k.
At the end of 1965, US troop strength was 181k.
At the end of 1966, US troop strength was 385k.
At the end of 1967, US troop strength was 486k.
At the end of 1968, US troop strength was 536k.
Nixon becomes president, and lo and behold, troop strength goes down!
At the end of 1969, US troop strength was 474k.
At the end of 1970, US troop strength was 335k.
August 12th 1972, The last American ground combat troops leave South Vietnam; 43,500 airmen and support personnel remain.
August 29. President Nixon announces withdrawals that will reduce total US strength in South Vietnam to 27,000 by December 1st.
January 15. Because of the progress in talks between Dr. Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho initial an agreement ending the war and providing for the release of prisoners of war; the agreement is formally signed on 27 January.

So, Nixon reduces troop strength, and ends the war, and you call that "troops pulled into Vietnam."

I'd recomend "Vietnam Order of Battle" by Shelby L. Stanton for information on the troop buildup.
This site has a graph showing the trend in troop strength

As for the bombing:
I don't have access to the actual number of sorties, but the heavist day of bombing of the war occured on Sept 12th 1966, and December 12th 1966 has the record for most planes downed in a day. Both of these fall squarely in the Johnson presidency.

Ronald Regean had a ton of money spent the armed forces during the end of the Cold War that it almost bankrupted the U.S. economy.

How does this qualify as "[being] more aggressive and start[ing] more wars"?

The increase in military spending between 1980 and 1988 was about the same as the increase in spending on Social Security and Medicare (154.1 vs. 151.4 billion dollers Source). In 1980, the US budget was 30% of GDP, in 1988 it was 30.4%, this is not the kind of change that bankrupts a government. Source

Trying to blame the increase in debt durring the 80s on increased military spending is, quite simply, wrong. The increase in Social Security and Medicare, Regans love of supply side economics durring his first few years, and the screwed up economy he inherited (which is more the fault of Nixon/Ford than Carter) all played their parts.

[Sir Taliesin]

Good post Seraph. I was about to post much the same thing, but without all the details. Good research!!!

Let's not hijack the tread and make it a war thread. That's not what it is about. State what you are. If you all want to discuss the war start another thread in Current Events!

Back on topic, I must say I am surprised at the number of people who associate themselves with the Republican Party. Not what I expected at all!

[Gab]

Seraph, you clearly did some research. You have presented some very good facts. I would still like to make a few points regarding this.

Yes I agree that Johnson was very agressive. You should know how much Johnson was criticised about the Vietnam near the end of his presidency. By the end of of Vietnam, Nixon had many of the troops withdrawn was because many of the Americans were oppossed to the war. Not because he wanted peace. Kennedy didn't even want any troops in Vietnam. So that proves Kennedy was less aggressive than Nixon.

Second, I made a mistake in using the term bankrupcy. What I meant was that the debt increased under Regean's Presidency. One the reasons was because of more military spending. There was a lot of debt near the end of his presidency.
You also cannot argue that Regean wasn't aggressive.

I'll try to make my point simple. There have been more agressive Republician presidents than there has Democratic. I'll list the presidents of each party who I think were quite aggressive.

Democrats: F.D.R., Harry S. Truman and Lyndon Johnson

Republicans: Dwight D. Eisenhower, Rihard Nixon, Ronald Regean, George Bush Sr. and George W. Bush Jr.

[ 10-18-2003, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Gab ]

[Chewbacca]

Lets not forget Nixon's illegal bombing of Laos and Cambodia, now thats being agressive! Though I do forget if LBJ had anything to do with that.

Speaking of LBJ, has anyone seen the HBO movie about him and Vietnam. I think it is called " A March to War" A very good movie I thought!

[ 10-19-2003, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Desuma Malevois]

I'm an anarchist at heart; however, I do recognize that this is an impractical stance to take in this day and age. I tend to follow my conscience, which usually leans towards liberal causes.

[khazadman]

Well Chewbacca, what about the illegal commy bases we were bombing? We weren't just holding target practice over there.
And as for the money Reagan spent on the military? That spending brought about the end of the USSR and it's slave states in eastern Europe. So I'd say it was money well spent.