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Old 09-21-2003, 04:14 PM   #21
Black Baron
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I do not view skunk as a "person that should be kicked". He is simply teling you, -i shall put it now carefully-not the truth. he accuses israel of being big bad person. i can argue with him or any one else, on a basis of facts and not some "rabid israelis" opinions, which stink of judophobia of the 1939 year. please notice that i post facts, even if arguable. He says things without any proof and expect someone that is insulted by it to remain quiet. Some things are best not to be said. like Fascist. Either prove it or do not talk about it. Someone who understands the term in full, might understand it wrong.

If i had insulted you, skunk, by my answers i do apologize.
I tend to write acidly in my essays. old habits die hard. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-21-2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Black Baron ]
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Old 09-21-2003, 06:54 PM   #22
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All quotes by Black Baron:
Quote:
First of all i will adress skunk. What are your sources of info? Cnn? bbc? they are as objective as you, which is to say none at all. I live here for over 13 years now, close to 14. (I am however 19 years old, immigrated to israel from russia when i was 6).
So, do you live in the Gaza strip or the West bank? You are not a Palestinian, so how can *you* know what it is like to live in those conditions and suffer that bigotry. You see it only from your side of the wall, from the watered gardens rather than from the arid desert.

Quote:
The palestinians never asked him to be here. He was imposted on them by Oslo limited. Now they hate us because of it. And you know what? i understand them. The "elections" were won by his secret police.
The elections were monitored by the UN and the EU - the only harrassment that was registered and noted came from Israeli troops.

Quote:
another thing, skunk, Arafat ordered the munchen olimpiade terrorristic act. he is nice person, i agree! he is a saint! In a satanic cult though. With him we are forced to negotiate, because of our leftists.
Do you know that the palestinian terrorrists entered our land in 1980-ies, entered a school and killed there teacher and 7 children? the name "maalot" says anything to you? and now guess who ordered it. right! abu-amar. (arafat)
And the Munich incident *was* disgusting - but the massacre at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps (also in the 80's) pales this into insignificance. Ariel Sharon ordered those murders. How do you compare the 11 killed in Munich to the 800 men women and children from those refugee camps? And what about the 500 murdered at the Jenin refugee camp last year? Who ordered that? It wasn't Arafat.

Neither of these two charactors are clean - both have blood on their hands. But they are merely actors in the play, and a discussion on 'who's more dirty' detracts from the real issues at hand: the pre-1967 borders.

Quote:
Rabid israelis. "Rabid", skunk, is a word that is used for a dog, not for a nation.
English is clearly not your first language, so I would not normally comment on grammatical errors and spelling etc. However, as you raised it yourself, the term rabid can indeed be used to refer to people with any of the the following meanings: zealous, fanatical, raging, uncontrolled etc..

Quote:
And you say-israel does not want peace. you are not a "baaz draconian", you are a diviner or a mind-flayer. You can read minds! really go to circus there your talents will be fully shown. You know what an entire nation wants. Bravo!! Bravovissimo!! The crowd applauds!!!
Actions speak louder than words. If Israel wanted peace, it would pull its tanks out of Palestine, tear down the 'settlements' built on Palestinian land and pull back to the pre-1967 war borders.

Quote:
Either go to circus to amaze people, or stop talking about things that you have no clue about, using moronic sources of info.
When you've spent a couple of months living as a Palestinian in Gaza, then I'll bow down to your personal insight into their lives.

Quote:
This is how i view it. We shall not give 100% of the territories, it is impossible economically (we have to place the people from there, somwhere in our land, which will cost more than 30,000,000,000 dollars USA. (30 billion). But we will return 95 or 97 percent.
How would Israel react to the idea of Syria taking $30 billion dollars worth of land from it? Would it not fight to the death just for the principle of the matter? Why should the Palestinians be any different? Israel was given its land - let the Palestinians have *their* land.
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Old 09-22-2003, 06:06 AM   #23
Black Baron
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500 murdered in jenin? only 50 killed. there is difference. more than 30 were armed. If we wanted every one dead-we could have used artillery. it would not lead to 23 soldiers dead.
Please notice that while i can understand your disgust with sharon (even if i do not agree with it), sharon is not israel. period. he is one man that decides.
About my insight on things. Our tv is left, totally. And it had shown several real convincing tapes about their lives. they do live horrible under 0 minimal conditions. We must return to them their lands even if we do not want to. They however (now i am talking about the arab countries), must compensate us. why? because when we went from their states (syria, iraq etc) we were not allowed to take our property. if they will return our property, i will consider it fair (and possible) to return to them 100 percent of the territories.
notice that i never said i like sharon too much, he also must go with arafat. trial, and if found guilty than to jail. International trial though, and belgium one.
If arafat wanted peace, he could have long ago disarm evry one there, that needs disarming. Compare by the way how palestinians lived before and after arafat. before was better. So i think it is 2 way street.
By the way why america does not return her own "teritories"? and russia too?
here i will also answer about the wars.
egypt closed the tiran passage to our ships. Besides the violation of international law, it only could mean one thing-war. (22.5.1967) in 29 of may the egyptian soldiers took place of the un slodiers in gaza strip and opened fire on our civilians. In 28 of may iraqi soldiers went to jordan. in 17.5 nacer kicked the un troops away from sinai, and took their place.
Syria said that she will continue to support the terrorristic organization fath, in israel.
I agree that there was a little chance that the war was a bluff. But wwe could think about it only in 1968. After some time. In 1967 it was all to real, and the war was in a high probability to happen. we decided to go blitzkrieg, instead of waiting for them to strike.
The war in 1982 was because that the lebanon government did nothing to prevent terrorrist inflitration to our state. It was like 1956 only in another place. The fact of us staying there was a mistake. we had to pull out at once, or to kill arafat and all of his cronies and then pull out. the second was more preferable.
Remember that in 1967 there was no cause for them to attack us.
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Old 09-22-2003, 08:00 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
500 murdered in jenin? only 50 killed. there is difference. more than 30 were armed. If we wanted every one dead-we could have used artillery. it would not lead to 23 soldiers dead.
"the IDF began utilising anti-aircraft weapons that fire 3,000 20-millimetre rounds a minute to destroy houses in which Palestinian fighters were said to be sheltering. In order to conceal its military operations from any prying journalists, the army produced a cordon of smoke to screen off the areas of fighting....

...A senior Palestinian spokesman, Nabil Shaath, has accused Israel of carrying out between 60 and 70 summary executions and removing corpses in refrigerated trucks: “The Israeli army took six days to complete its massacre in Jenin and six days to clean it up...

The United Nations envoy to the Middle East, Terje Roed-Larsen, described Jenin as, “shocking and horrifying beyond belief.” Roed-Larsen said 300 buildings were destroyed and 2,000 people were left homeless: “I’ve just been witnessing two brothers digging out of the rubble their father and five other family members. I witnessed a family digging out their about 12-year-old son from beneath the rubble. There’s a stench of decaying corpses all over the place here, the scene is absolutely unbelievable ... No military operation could justify the suffering we are seeing here...

The Mirror’s David Pilditch...Jumana Hassan, 24, who told him that soldiers had gathered bodies together and blew them up to hide the evidence. Jumana said: “There were six men whose bodies were lying in the street. They were left for days. They threw them into a pile. There was an explosion and there was nothing left of their bodies.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/ap...isra-a20.shtml

I'm afraid that Israel has to live with the same argument that it supported over Iraq. Where are the 450 unaccounted for civilians? We know that they were there before, we knew that they could not get out - so where are they now?

Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
They however (now i am talking about the arab countries), must compensate us. why? because when we went from their states (syria, iraq etc) we were not allowed to take our property. if they will return our property, i will consider it fair (and possible) to return to them 100 percent of the territories.
Originally posted by Black Baron:
You are sitting in an entire country's worth of compensation. Israel was given a vast land expanse with which to found a nation - land worth trillions of dollars. That's compensation enough.
But this land has nothing to do with the Syrian government or Iraq etc. - it belonged to the people who lived there - who had never taken anything away from Jews. So demanding that other countries 'repay' Israel yet further in return for the Palestinians freedom/land is like hostage taking in return for cash. Not exactly a morally correct thing to do.

Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
If arafat wanted peace, he could have long ago disarm evry one there, that needs disarming. Compare by the way how palestinians lived before and after arafat. before was better. So i think it is 2 way street.
The palestinians were infinitely better off before Arafat - but then that was before the 1967 war.

Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
By the way why america does not return her own "teritories"? and russia too?
We've had the englightenment and two world wars in which so many died. The world changed since those lands were seized.

The United States was founded on land that belonged to the Native Americans but it has yet to invade and formally seize and annex more territory for itself this side of the C19th century. There are no new American colonies either.
Russia? The breakup of the Soviet Union and the return of the nation states that belonged to it back to their own people could not have slipped by you considering your roots. One of those former USSR states, Latvia, has just agreed to join the EU.

Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
egypt closed the tiran passage to our ships. Besides the violation of international law
It was not a violation of international law. The Suez Canal was a part of Egytian territory and therefore it had a right to say which shipping could enter its territorial waters. Egypt and Saudia Arabia also had territorial rights to the waters surrounding the islands Tiran and Sanafir and again, according to the dictates of international law which are still valid today had every right to control any shipping which passed within 4 miles of those islands.

Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
in 29 of may the egyptian soldiers took place of the un slodiers in gaza strip and opened fire on our civilians. In 28 of may iraqi soldiers went to jordan. in 17.5 nacer kicked the un troops away from sinai, and took their place.
Which does skip a few events. Even the 'politically correct' Wikipedia Encyclopedia states:
Throughout 1956, conflict increased between Israel and Egypt, with Israel launching frequent incursions into Egyptian territory and Egypt increasingly defending itself. Egypt, under the leadership of President Gamal Abdul Nasser, blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba and closed the Suez canal to Israeli shipping. At the same time, Egypt nationalized the canal, a vital trade route to the east, in which British banks and business held a 44% stake.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Suez_War

Egypt's actions did not occur out of the blue - there was a great deal of provocation and due fear of a full Israeli incursion into either their own territory or one of the other neighbouring Arabic states.

Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
Syria said that she will continue to support the terrorristic organization fath, in israel.
As long as it remains a political party which has given up armed struggle, I can see no problem in that. Neither can your own government - who is only targeting Hamas rather than any other group since they are the only ones who are refusing a non-military path to self-determination.

As for whether they are currently a terrorist organisation, that is a matter of opinion. But if you subscribe to the view that Fath is terrorist, then by the same token, you must also subscribe to the view that Mossad is a terrorist organisation - anything less would be hypocritical, since both groups have been responsible for exactly the same sort of actions.

Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
The war in 1982 was because that the lebanon government did nothing to prevent terrorrist inflitration to our state.
Well, we are talking about the PLO again - who would not exist if Israel withdrew to the pre-1967 borders, since they were fighting to reclaim their home-land. And what ever actions that the PLO were responsible for, nothing that they did compares with:
"Over 1982 to 1983 alone, there were an estimated 14,000 deaths in Beirut, most of them civilian victims of Israel's hi-tech arsenal which included phosphorous bombs and implosion devices that can fell an entire residential skyscraper."
http://www.megastories.com/mideast/wars/1982.htm

And of course, the invasion of Lebanon gave birth to Hezbollah too...

Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
Remember that in 1967 there was no cause for them to attack us.
No there wasn't - and so they didn't.

-------------------------------

Now something from me. When the Nazi's stole from the Jews, taking their land and property - the Jews never forgot it. After the war, when the banks denied them their own money and those monies belonging to the survivors of the holocaust, the Jews never forgot it.

It took fifty years of heavy determination by Jewish groups to finally get settlements against governments and businesses - because the Jewish groups never gave up on and refused to allow the guilty parties walk away from their responsibilities in the THEFT of their property.

GOOD FOR THEM!!! The bulk of them finally achieved their justice.
But not all of the victims have been compensated - and their still fighting their way throught the courts to get that which belonged to them to be returned to them and to get compensation for past wrongs. Fortunately, they have that legal route open to them.

Now, why shouldn't the Palestinians get *their* property back? What makes anyone think that they will fight any less hard to get the same kind of justice? What makes anyone think that, if the the Jewish groups fight for fifty years to achieve justice, that the Palestinians won't do the same?

And if there is no court willing to listen to Palestinian demands to return their property - what other option is there for them but to engage in a physical fight?
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Old 09-22-2003, 09:05 AM   #25
Black Baron
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First of all, i never denied them the right. the settlements were a mistake, from the beginning. we had to hold the teritories, ues, but only as a bargaining chip, which should have been returned as soon as possible.
About the compensation-sorry, our land was built by us. we worked hard for it, we built here, we have done everything that we could in order to have here a normal place to live. If you deny our compensation, you say that we could hold their lands, on the same principle-principle of theft. When the jews wanted to go to israel, the arab leaders forbade them to take their property.
It is a criminal act.

In 1967 fath was long ago terrorristic organization. By the way-what is now day tanzim?
And the source is not up to date. "Still maintains..." Heavens! we retreated in 2000, from lebanon.
Do you know what a "fedayin" were? Do you know that they came from egypt? Israel could not allow this to continue, while we had interests in the canal, the security factor was also important.
By russia territories i mean kaliningrad. And the world had also changed since 1967. i see no difference.

The site about jenin is hardly credible, sorry. it is not objective at all. it says "war crimes" and that arafat does not stop ""terrorrism"". Sorry but it is terrorrism, what he does not stop. A little infant was shot purposefully by a pali sniper. her name was Shalhevet Pas.
And palestinians are hardly a credible witneses, they hate israel and will say all to black it. We did destroy homes, i agree. 2000 were i think left without homes, with that i agree also. about the 500 dead...
were are the bodies? Unaccounted? can they show papers that will prove that they existed? i also can say what i like, that will hardly be the truth though.
We had a picture made by mazlat."unmanned little plane"-he showed a burial where a palestinian was buried. in the process, the corpse fell, stood up and entered the cofin again, or whatever they used to transport it. We showed it to the security counsul of the un.

And what do you think we had to do with these homes, from where the terrorrists shot? leave them intact and endanger ourselves?

And by the way-vast land expense. The negev is not a very good place to live in,i can assure you. while it is habitable, you must invest so much in it, that it becomes almost unprofitable. negev is almost two thirds of our land.
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Old 09-22-2003, 09:33 AM   #26
The Hierophant
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Quote:
Originally posted by Black Baron:
And palestinians are hardly a credible witneses, they hate israel and will say all to black it.
I don't wish to detract from this interesting debate between you and Skunk, but it would appear that you have your own share of blinding hatred too friend. Not that such hate is unfounded, but what steps foward can ever be taken unless you are bold enough to put your fear of attack behind you and abandon your assumptions about these people you refer to? If their hate makes them less credible as witnesses, then so too does yours.
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Old 09-22-2003, 09:43 AM   #27
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Originally posted by Skunk:
Quote:
So, do you live in the Gaza strip or the West bank? You are not a Palestinian, so how can *you* know what it is like to live in those conditions and suffer that bigotry. You see it only from your side of the wall, from the watered gardens rather than from the arid desert.
You need to watch how you are speaking Skunk. I have warned you before. I will not allow further insults toward ANY country, no matter how you feel. You can debate without your acidic attitude.


And THIS?
Quote:
English is clearly not your first language, so I would not normally comment on grammatical errors and spelling etc.
You are being VERY rude here. STOP NOW! Everyone on the planet doesn't speak ENGLISH skunk. Any further comments like this, and you are suspended. grow up.

[ 09-22-2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Ziroc ]
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Old 09-22-2003, 10:01 AM   #28
The Hierophant
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I don't think the 'English as a first language' statement was made with malicious intent. As far as I know the people of Israel primarily speak Hebrew don't they? I'm not sure though, and I may be putting words in Skunk's mouth here, but I think he has been reasonably civil considering the heat of the debate.

But, not my board. not my call...
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Old 09-22-2003, 10:50 AM   #29
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We all know he said that to try to make him look foolish. Why else would he even bother typing it? For what reason does it have with the topic? [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 09-22-2003, 11:14 AM   #30
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ok man
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