Naked Man Arrested for Felony Murder!

[antryg]

[quote]Originally posted by Timber Loftis:

Felony Murder Doctrine DA's argue felony murder because it's so much easier to prove than murder. It's very easy: (1) did you commit a felony? (2) did someone die? If yes and yes, then go straight to the chamber, do not pass go. Here's a site arguing for change of the felony murder rule: http://www.ncfelonymurder.org/home.html

.....and that is what gets used so often in Texas and one of the reason Texas leads the nation in executions.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Reeka: Chewy, It happened in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The young man, who was a student at the University of Alabama, by the name of Brian Sellers (not a friend of yours I hope). I can't remember the first name, but the gentleman who died was a Mr. Cabaniss. BTW, how can you stand it up there? I mean, all those yankees running around. [img]smile.gif[/img] . Ooops, Z is a transplanted yankee. Maybe he won't see this.

Aw Yankees aren't that bad , I am marrying one after all!

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

That's why she should be charged with involuntary manslaughter instead of felony murder. Marking it as murder does not automatically derive from the felony ti is just boosted through it. Let's assume the guy was not drunk and not naked but a common burglar. Let's also assume the house belonged to a healthy young couple. Situation: He breaks in. The husband hears him and wants to take a look downstairs. In the darkness he trips and falls down the stairs breaking his neck. Now he would still be alive if it wasn't for that burglar but the burglar did not kill him and therefore probably shouldn't be charged for murder.

Does this mean that if you kill an intruder that it isnt murder because he would be alive if he wasnt pokeing around in your house??


**I am only playing devils advocate here because I happen to think that if I catch an intruder in my house, then he is mine to dismember and bury as I see fit.**

[Skunk]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Does this mean that if you kill an intruder that it isnt murder because he would be alive if he wasnt pokeing around in your house?? **I am only playing devils advocate here because I happen to think that if I catch an intruder in my house, then he is mine to dismember and bury as I see fit.** [/QB]

The rules are that *you* can be charged with murder if someone dies while *you* are committing a crime. In the scenario that you mention, since you are not the one committing the crime, there is no automatic murder charge.

Of course, if the burglar has surrendered to you and you put a gun to the back of his head and pulled the trigger...

[ 09-11-2003, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Faceman]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: quote: That's why she should be charged with involuntary manslaughter instead of felony murder. Marking it as murder does not automatically derive from the felony ti is just boosted through it. Let's assume the guy was not drunk and not naked but a common burglar. Let's also assume the house belonged to a healthy young couple. Situation: He breaks in. The husband hears him and wants to take a look downstairs. In the darkness he trips and falls down the stairs breaking his neck. Now he would still be alive if it wasn't for that burglar but the burglar did not kill him and therefore probably shouldn't be charged for murder.

Does this mean that if you kill an intruder that it isnt murder because he would be alive if he wasnt pokeing around in your house??


**I am only playing devils advocate here because I happen to think that if I catch an intruder in my house, then he is mine to dismember and bury as I see fit.** [/QUOTE]We'd have to ask timber. But from the blurry definition this law holds it could mean you could shoot your annoying "Ned Flanders"-neighbour and get away with it because the burglar is responsible for every death that occurs in his presence during the felony.
I've now surfed some website in disbelief. This is a law completely against everything the modern justice system represents. And the fact that you can't appeal against it without appealing agianst the felony is ridicolous. I'm sure that some people who've been charged with FM would have received more moderate sentences in Ancient Rome.
But what bothers me the most is the blurry definition which basically allows the most absurd cases like for example gunning down your whole neighbourhood with the .50BMG M2 you conveniently have located in your backyard for self-defense and having the burglar charged for it.

[WillowIX]

I believe Timber made it perfectly clear what the law says about this. But the "fun" part is that there is no way to show that the man, the naked one, was responsible for the death. The old man could just as well have died from a heart attack when trying to get out of bed, or even going down the stairs... But then I guess they don't have to show that do they? That law isn't that good come to think of it.

[Timber Loftis]

Skunk was accurate about the .50 BMG-meets-burglar-and-neighbors scenario. If you use force against someone in self-defense, it is a whole different legal test that gets applied to YOU. Part of that test will be "reasonableness." As the .50 M2 Browning BMG is likely un unreasonable reaction (as well as an outright hazard to have around) to the threat of burlary, I'd guess you'd be in a heap of trouble for killing.... maybe not for the burglar, but as for the neighbor, their house, their kids, their dog -- well, you get the picture.

NOw, don't forget the guy can attack the underlying crime. Perhaps he was robbed of all his clothes and being chased and sought refuge. Necessity defense. See, if he wasn't guilty of the underlying criminal charge, it will be very difficult to hold his culpable for the murder -- as you will have to do the standard (guilty mind and premeditation/rage) analysis. In such an instance, I can't see him being on the hook for more than manslaughter -- perhaps even the negligent version of manslaughter rather than the intentional version (again, I'm not familiar with the exact breakdown of death crimes in Alabame).

[Night Stalker]

I don't know Timber, a Ma Deuce seems a pretty reasonable response to me. Now at the ranges of your typical burglary, you ain't gonna fire it. Clubbing the a-hole with the barrel on the other hand would do quite nicely!

Now, if you waited until the bastard was fleeing then gunned him down at 1 Km with a 50 rnd burst .... THAT's unreasonable!

[Timber Loftis]

NightStalker, remind me to get you tickets to the Kentucky Machine-gun Shoot for Christmas. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Faceman]

Well of course the M2 is a bit unreasonable for personal self-defense but where do you get a proper Vulcan these days

Seriously. While I would be up for several charges the guy would immediately go down under the FM rule although I was the crazy who emptied enough ammo to supply the the IRA for two years into the neighbourhood. Because the killings apparently don't have to be felony related in any other way than time and space.

If you have read the ncfelonymurder.com-Link Timber posted earlier you are familiar with the story of Lisl Auman. What strikes me there is that she was already arrested and cuffed inside the police car when the kill happened. So - correct me if I'm wrong - she was not commiting a felony anymore at the time of the killing.
So it comes down to
+ if you commit a felony and somebody dies - note that both need to be related in no way - we can charge you with Murder One if we don't like you.
.
It's an all prupose law. As it does neither care about foreseeability nor about close relation to the death we could hold any felon responsible for any death that occured in his county/state and can be linked to him by any means (e.g. because he robbed my store I had to take a second job at which I caused an accident that cost a co-worker his life). So life sentence for all felons.
.
And on a more serious side again. Why IS there still Murder Two if you have the FM rule?? Any Murder Two could be easily turned into un-appealable Murder One if the FM law is applied.