How Are Human Monsters Made?

[Ladyzekke]

I have to agree with Melusine on this one, mostly I was wanting to hear mostly about what you guys think makes a killer like this guy, not really what we should do with him. I guess I made the mistake of starting my opening paragraph with "what should we do with this guy" LOL, but I meant more along the lines of "can he be helped, turned around from evil."

But I mean yall can discuss death penalty or no all you want, I'll just skip those posts [img]smile.gif[/img]

B-part - I did mention at the bottom of my post that this particular guy was just one example, and that I realize there are many other people who are much worse than this guy. I used this guy in my link purely as an example, that's it, to begin the discussion, because I just happened upon the article and it made me think.

Melusine - I agree there has to be some type of mental disorder going on in many cases, perhaps a lack of chemicals or too many, in the brain, who knows? Something that makes a person unable to control themselves. I mean, let's face it, we have all had hateful thoughts or feelings for someone at least one time in our life, but we do not act out on them. Oh our feelings can be quite strong and powerful, but we do not throw away all logic and rationality and just act out our primitive emotions physically.

The one thing though that still makes me wonder though, is the childhood aspect. Yes, lots of killers have been brought up with loving families (or so we hear, but we weren't there either), but there are quite a LOT of criminals who had abusive childhoods. I mean when you are a child you are learning, and you learn by example from your parents and other adults in your life. So it kind of seems logical that if you were brought up around a bunch of uncaring violent thugs, your mind may mold and grow with similar mentalities. I mean, are we all born with love for other human beings?

Bah, again to me it is still a very big mystery. I truly wish there was a simple way to find out, and fix it, so we didn't have people like serial killers on this planet anymore. But something tells me it just isn't that simple. [img]graemlins/awcrap.gif[/img]

[HolyWarrior]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: What you may fail to realize is that for the lawyer, it is nearly absolute malpractice to NOT try to use every possible defense in a murder-one case.

And was it not the Lawyers and Judges that made it this way? If it were not for bleeding heart lawyers who were apparently more interested in criminal rights than in victims rights, I think the rest of the lawyers would have a much cleaner system to work with. [img]smile.gif[/img] Just a lay persons perspective.
[/QUOTE]It's not the lawyer failing to make the argument that is the problem -- wouldn't we all love that. It's the parade of lawyers that lawyer must face in the future, all who are required to "zealously represent" the defendant on his various "ineffective counsel" motions. If the legislature provides a defense, and if juries will hold a case on that defense, you can't ask me not to argue it. In the advesary system of justice, I must pick up every sword that may defend my charge. Lest I get called to the carpet later for failure to do so.

Again, we just argue the defenses given to us by the legislature. Especially where criminal law is concerned, the legislature dictates it all VERY SPECIFICALLY via statute. [/QUOTE]Are you saying that defense lawyers have NO choice in which persons to defend?

[Faceman]

Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by Faceman: What would you accomplish in killing him? It's clear that he should be out of the picture but that can be done with a real life sentence too. What other good would his killing do? Give me one reason other than "satisfaction" what good would be accomplished by executing him.

Taxmoney ? [/QUOTE]You DO know he fact that due to the time doing in Death Row and the extremely high court expenses for additional trials the average Death Row prisoner costs the US more than someone with a life sentence.

[B_part]

Originally posted by ladyzekke: B-part - I did mention at the bottom of my post that this particular guy was just one example, and that I realize there are many other people who are much worse than this guy. I used this guy in my link purely as an example, that's it, to begin the discussion, because I just happened upon the article and it made me think. [...] Bah, again to me it is still a very big mystery. I truly wish there was a simple way to find out, and fix it, so we didn't have people like serial killers on this planet anymore. But something tells me it just isn't that simple. [img]graemlins/awcrap.gif[/img]

I believe as well that it's not that simple .

Psychos are ill and cannot really distinguish wrong from right, or cannot freely choose, put it as you wish. This means they are not responsible of their actions, and cannot be punished for them. Of course they must be kept separated from the society to keep them and the others safe, but that's not a punishment, it's just the only possible way to put a remedy to a bad situation. These are not true monsters, just like a lion cannot be called a monster because he slaughters a baby elephant.

What I meant with the post above is that there are people who are able to choose right and wrong, and willfully choose wrong. Thieves, murederers, even ourselves, at least sometimes. And that "wrong" might mean million deaths in a lager or a gulag or whatever the local idiom calls a concentration camp. And the scariest thing is, such crimes are perpetrated for reasons not terribly different from those who move ourselves in our lives. Eichmann, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam and the others were not psychos (well, Hitler wasn't all that normal...but Himmler, Kappler, Goring and the others were).
These are in my opinion the human monsters, and it's simple ruthlessness who makes them.


Some of us, most of us or even all of us could, given the right chance, turn into a mass murderer, even if we are absolutely normal and sane people. That's why I, like you, think it's not that simple. Actually I'm a bit more pessimistic and think there is no hope

[johnny]

You're not being pessimistic at all B_part, just realistic. Humans are predators by nature. One can only hope that there won't be too many of these guys cross the lines of sanity.

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by Melusine: You'd have to ask her. I'm Melusine. And no, we can't. Finally an interesting discussion and we'd have to bring out the old pro death anti death thing again which no one will ever agree on? Nuh-uh. no thanks. [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img] We've had that debate a million times over on IW and I'm sure if Wendy wanted us to discuss capital punishment in her thread she would have written a different opening post.

Oh gosh! [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Sorry about that. LOL. I have no idea how I got the two of you that mixed up.

B_part, what is right and wrong? After all "conscience" is just something we humans made up. No such thing physically exists. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Sorry, couldn't help myself from posting that. However it is an intriguing question. Hmm perhaps I will start a new thread. [img]smile.gif[/img]

BAH! Dang that smilye limit!

[Melusine]

LOL Willow, that's alright! Maybe because we both have French-sounding names starting with M and ending in e.
Anyway, being mistaken for Moiraine is something I'll take as a compliment

[B_part]

Originally posted by WillowIX: B_part, what is right and wrong? After all "conscience" is just something we humans made up. No such thing physically exists. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Sorry, couldn't help myself from posting that. However it is an intriguing question. Hmm perhaps I will start a new thread. [img]smile.gif[/img] BAH! Dang that smilye limit!

What is conscience? really I couldn't say. What is right and what is wrong? Another question without answer. The only thing I can say is that a common ground on right and wrong must be estabilished and enforced, for the sake of peaceful living.
It took some thousands of years of history to reach some conclusions you can read in the constitutions of democratic countries all around the world, and although the details may vary, the core is the same (rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness).
Cultural relativists may say these core principles are right in our culture only, because others (e.g. Osama and his pals, just to make a striking example) have different values wich have exactly the same dignity of ours. We should not judge them or try to impose our views.
I firmly believe that this relativistic view is the most dangerous invention of the human mind. Relativism justifies killing 6 million jews because that's what the Nazi culture said was right.
The line between respecting another culture and allowing anything must be set somewhere, and must be set precisely. I have decided that this border lies in the words I mentioned above about life freedom and happiness. I cannot say these principles are right in abstract and a priori . But History has clearly shown that these principles, even when applied imperfectly, make living better than any others.
This makes them right, and worth fighting for.

[Grendal]

I dont know if it has made world wide news or not but here in vancouver we have been having a problem with our prostitutes disappearing for the last 20 years. About 50 have gone missing. Last year the police raided an old pig farm about 10 minuits away from my place,(they are still there with forensic specialists) Turns out they have found dna evidence and have so far charged him with the serial killings of 15 of the missing women. The police have also taken away a wood chipper as evidence. I have no idea what makes a guy do this crap. Obviously ppl like this have a screw loose. Can they be "fixed"?...I dont think so. I think they are missing something upstairs that can not be replaced by the prison system or doctors. Someone said earlier that we as human animals do have a killer instinct. This I agree with but that instinct would come into play as a fight or flight thing or worst case scenario the need for food. Killing and mutilating other humans as a means of personal gratification has nothing to do with either one.

[Cloudbringer]

Very nicely put, Grendal! I think as human beings, we have the capacity to reason and a 'conscience' among other things. IMO the 'killer instinct' should be governed by those things. Not the other way around.

I saw news clips of the incident you described and it was pretty horrible!