Elminster vs Gandalf vs Raistlin Majere

[enigma]

Actually, Takhisis is an aspect of the deity better known in the multiverse as Tiamat, the Queen of Evil Dragons. As an intermediate deity, Tiamat has the ability to have multiple aspects on different worlds. In addition to being the evil goddess Takhisis on Krynn, Tiamat also has a small but growing following in the southern lands of Faerun (Chessenta, Unther and the lands south of the Inner Sea). Her primary role, however, is as the five-headed Chromatic Dragon who guards the entrance to Dis, the second layer of Hell, from intrusions both celestial and abyssal. Her lair is on Avernus, first layer of Hell.

Waaah! The Moderator and his seemingly infinite wisdom strikes again!

Thanks Memnoch!

[Lady Blue03]

ya you guys just lost me there...i guess i need to read these books then?

[Luvian]

Raistlin would win. He DID take out Takhisis and then Paladine after that. He was THE supreme being.

Thatis because the novel writer said so. If he knew anything of the rules of dungeon and dragons, he would know it is impossible, how many time in D&D novels will you see impossible things happenings, they could never happen, but the novel writer decided to still put them, because they are cool. As an example, take Drizzt killing that demon who jumped on him, because he impaled himself on his frost scimitar. This would NEVER kill the demon. In those novels we can see everything, from apprentice casting anything from 5 magic missile at the same time (you would need to be like level 20 to do that) to fireballs and more. You can see mage casting an infinite number of spells when it is convenient, You can see some nameless bard kill a god on his plane, ... the list goes on for a long time.

That is one of the aspect I don't like about the D&D novels. They never follow any rules, the writer always do anything they feel like too without any regards about the world that has been build before them. To me it is like if you ask one of your friend to Dungeon Master your 3 years game for a night because you are out of town, and when you come back he killed 3 of your major NPCs, cripled 2 pc, destroyed a country and gave the last healty pc the power to kill anything at will. When you get the honor of contributing to such a complex world as D&D, you have the duty to respect what has been done before you, and to pay attention to details.

Actually, Takhisis is an aspect of the deity better known in the multiverse as Tiamat, the Queen of Evil Dragons. As an intermediate deity, Tiamat has the ability to have multiple aspects on different worlds. In addition to being the evil goddess Takhisis on Krynn, Tiamat also has a small but growing following in the southern lands of Faerun (Chessenta, Unther and the lands south of the Inner Sea). Her primary role, however, is as the five-headed Chromatic Dragon who guards the entrance to Dis, the second layer of Hell, from intrusions both celestial and abyssal. Her lair is on Avernus, first layer of Hell.

Nice! I see I am not the only D&D ghuru around here! How long ave you played D&D?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Well, Luvian, I'm going to have to disagree with you on one point.

It is not IMPOSSIBLE to kill a god in AD&D (especially in avatar form). Admittedly, the chances of defeating a god on their home plane should be infinitely tiny (maybe a 1 in 100,000 chance), but it could technically be done.

I had a dwarf fighter that embarked on a self-imposed quest to kill Grolantar (the Hill God giant and a perpetual racial enemy to dwarves). His goal was to achieve Sainthood as described in one of the "Best of Dragon" magazines.

His quest was successful for a number of reasons.
1) I had a POWERFUL party to back me up (about 6 characters....all over 20th level).
2) The dwarf had the Ring of Gaxx and the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords to aid him (he actually began the initial phase of the Quest when he received the Axe).
3) I received a special blessing directly from my diety, Clangeddin Silverbeard, to aid in the final battle.
4) I had a very lenient DM.

To be honost, I probably would NOT have allowed the victory if I were the DM. But my dwarf had decided that he would either win great honor for his diety or go out in a blaze of glory.

Fantasy and mythology works are filled with stories of mortals challenging the gods themselves. As you said, it's very rare that they succeed, but there is just the slimmest of chances that they could.

And most novels - especially those set in Forgotten Realms and Krynn - DO follow AD&D rules.

The entire Dragonlance series was ROLEPLAYED by Weiss, Hickman, and thier friends. That's why the characters sometimes do unexpected things...because that's how it happened in the game.

For example, the authors admitted that Raistlin was originally a very weak character. Then - in one of the gaming session shortly after changing alignments - the PLAYER used the low, raspy whisper that suddenly made the character seem MUCH more menacing. Weiss and Hickman said that they would NEVER have thought to do that with Raistlin on their own.

Well anyway, I agree with you in theory...it SHOULD be ALMOST completely impossible for a PnP character to defeat a diety....but that's the beauty of PnP...sometimes, you CAN do the impossible.

[Encard]

Hmm... I'd say Gandalf, although I'm not too sure... *shrug* As for Rand Al'THor (or whatever the spelling is), he doesn't seem quite as powerful to me... and, Richard Rahl doesn't seem to even come close... he's poweful, but he couldn't take on Gandalf, Elminster, etc... hmm... well... nah, actually, I'd say Encrad, Lord of the RaBid Fruit Trees would win... [img]smile.gif[/img] Hmm... I wonder if Elminster could stand up to a group of Mirror Lancers... (L.E. Modesitt) They're not too fancy, but the firebolts/firelances are pretty much instant kill... although that's probably because the books are more realistic combat/damage-wise... Hmm... there's someone I'm forgetting... hmm...

[Luvian]

No, Cerek, you do not understand, it is IMPOSSIBLE to kill a god. Not his a avatar, his real form. I have it written in front of me in a D&D rulebook.

First of all, a god can only die in his realm. If he die somewhere else he will just reform in his realm after a few days. Also, Only a god of equal or greater power can kill another god, and even then it will be VERY HARD. To have any chance of succes of killing a god in his homeplane you would need more than one god, because the god you want to kill will be in his realm, and HE IS his realm, so watch out for your godly ass if you try.

I know the first main Novels of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms where roleplayed, but only that, the first few, they didn't roleplay every novels they wrote. If I scan my collection of D&D novels, I am sure I can find more than 30 different writers. I am talking about those writers mainly. They don't seem to have a clue what D&D is. I am pretty sure I could find at least 2 errors in every novels.

You see, I am a little fanatic when it come to D&D. I have bought more than 1000$ Of D&D Rulebook, Campain setting, novels... and I have been a Dungeon Master for about 6 years now. I have spent lot of time reading, and re-reading, and re-reading all my rulebook. So you see, I have access to lot of obscure rules not a lot of people have heard about, and when I see "official people" (like novels writers) forget about those rules, it get on my nerves. I am a very professional guy, and I don't like amateur.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Greetings again, Luvian.

Alright, I didn't know there was an actual rule that stated "No god can be killed" (it's been a loooong time since read through the rulebooks or gamed on a regular basis). I started in 1985 and played pretty steadily up through about 1991, so our gaming experience is fairly even.

AFA the gods, I knew that they would reform if you killed their avatar and that the ONLY way to permanently kill a god was to meet him/her on thier homeplane (which Raistlin did).

My original group would've let you get to the plane, but the party would be TOASTED pretty quickly. Gygax had a bad habit of seriously UNDERpowering the deities, so we determined that the stats given in the DDG were strictly for the avatar form.

On their home plane, the diety would have 10x the number of hit points listed, they would be able to cast any spell of any kind at will 5x round, would have 100% Magic Resistance, etc, etc.

Like you said, it's almost certain suicide - and I agree that my dwarf never should have been able to do it. It didn't matter, though, because I retired him after that dungeon, so I never got to use any of his Saintly abilities.

OK, this has been an enjoyable side-thread, but let's get back to our topic.

Personally, I would have to pick Gandalf. He's the only one that is not "mortal", and as mentioned before, I get the feeling that he never revealed his full power. I firmly believe that Gandalf, the White COULD stand toe-to-toe with Sauron and come out on top, but that's not how the story developed.

Elminster - Mystra has imbued him with some "paranormal" abilities so that he can act on her behalf, but in the end, he is still MOSTLY mortal. He is very powerful, but I would still have to give the edge to Gandalf.

Raistlin Majere - while he is arguably one of the most powerful wizards ever created, the fact remains that he is completely mortal. He may be much more devious and cunning than Elminster or Gandalf, but he simply doesn't have the sheer, raw power they do.

A couple of my friends had high-level mages of their own that could easily have faced off with Raistlin and come out on top.

AAMOF, I would put my own beloved Cerek up against him any day. He's a 28th level barbarian with 400hp and some serious Magic Resistance of his own that he gained from an artifact. He swings a +5 Githyanki Sword of Sharpness (2-hand). Raistlin may be very strong, but he's going to have a hard time casting with no arms, and he's only going to get to cast one spell before I'm on top of him (his best bet would be the dreaded Time Stop).

Alright, now I'M getting off topic again....sorry.

Thanks to everyone who has participated so far. Let's keep it going. I'm really enjoying hearing all these different opinions.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Luvian: [QB] That is one of the aspect I don't like about the D&D novels. They never follow any rules, the writer always do anything they feel like too without any regards about the world that has been build before them.

It's what you call literary license.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Luvian: No, Cerek, you do not understand, it is IMPOSSIBLE to kill a god. Not his a avatar, his real form. I have it written in front of me in a D&D rulebook.

There are ways to kill a god. Fantastic ways to be sure, and almost impossible to mere mortals, and certainly not something as mundane as slaying a god's avatar. But there are ways.

[Lady Blue03]

IMHO, you guys butchered this thread as soon as you started debating the D&D rules and whether or not you can kill gods. Lets just leave it at Ganalf...agreed? Hehehe. You know wahts a bad-ass song? Total Immortal by AFI....hmmm yep