Some more partie ideas

[allstargoaly]

Petertmorgan, thanks for the advice.

I haved face 9 Juggernauts (4 Jugs and 5 Jugs) before (with my party of 6 + Vi and RFS). It was a long freaking battle. Everyone at one time or another passed out. The problem wasn't damage or speed, the problem was health. The Jugernauts have insane amounts of HP. In fact if I remember correctly, they didn't touch me. I first used Poet's Lute (sleep) which affected the whole front row of them. Then I used Snare Drums (slow). And finally Armor Melt. Plus my party continuosly KO them. Still it took over 20 mins to kill all of them.

And to make matters worse... as soon as I beat them I walked down the road (Arnika) and met up with 15 more (3 groups of 5 Jugs)!!! To think I just destroyed a bunch and was out of stamina, but NOOOOOOOO, my party has the PLEASURE of fighting again... NOT!!! I ran. Ran like the wind!!!

Can't wait until I face them again (Hahahaha, ohhh boy!!!!).

Thanks petertmorgan thats helps if you have anymore advice just let me know.

[ 10-15-2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

[dplax]

Alstargoaly if the first group did'nt touch you, then why bother running from the second one? You coul have just waited in battle to get the stamina back, and kill them afterwards.

[allstargoaly]

Petertmorgan, I was also thinking about your party.

You said that you have 3 characters in the front row and the Alcem in the middle. Stop right there...

Put the Ranger on the outside and the Valk on the outside. The Ranger should be just fine on the outside (uses long range). The Valk should be fine too (assuming that you are using a EXTENDED WEAPON, a.k.a. polearm). The Valk can still hit in melee from the side because the EXTENDED WEAPON can reach from there. This way you can inclose the Alcem. (protecting his low health butt).

If not put the Ranger next to the Alcem in the middle (pushing the Alcem to the right side of the middle). This will allow the Ranger to still attack from long range; as well as, protect the Alcem (sort of). Basically the only way you can damage the Alcem is from behind or from the right side (if he is on the right side of the middle).

See if that doesn't work better in protecting the Alcem.


Edit: dplax... I had no stamina left for my Bard. The only reason why the first group didn't touch me is because the Bard kept them at bay with her instruments (sleep, haste, slow, and armor melt.) She was gone (basically) and the Jugs were already annoying the first time. If you think about it, it was kind of stupid. But I was right next to the entrance to Arnika and I didn't feel like taking another 20-25 mins of strugling with 15 more Jugs. So I just used what little stamina my entire party had left and ran for Arnika.

[ 10-15-2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

ASG - i'm a huge fan of the 3-4 member party. the biggest consideration i've found, relative to the larger parties, is defence. you have to pay much closer attention to their health and well-being.

as such, before i leaver arnika the first time, i equip everyone with 5 pickmeups, or better yet 5 restorations if i can afford them. i also scatter around cure paralysis powder and smelling salts and resurrections. sure, a spellcaster may have these spells, but what if they're the ones affected?

and if i dont have access to priest spells, rest all scrolls are added to the character inventories.

during battle, stamina is a huge consideration, particularly for high number of attack characters like the monk and ninja. even a rogue who's built dex and spd up can start to drain their stamina quickly. so if you have a priest or alchemist, be prepared to take time to use that lvl 1 stamina spell to save the fighters from having to stop to heal themselves - the priest and alchemist work great in tandem with a bard for this reason. in your case, the bishop will have to fill this role.

for after battles, i use heli's bread rolls, which i keep stocked to the max in the inventory, to get everyone back to near fighting trim, just in case of those surprise back-to-back encounters. sure, spellcasting for health and stamina is better for learning/practice, but that early in the game mana is hard to come by and the spell points are better used in combat, imo.

i find the faster levelling and focus of playing small parties more enjoyable. on the other hand, my wife says my little mind cant handle the challenge of making combat decisions and tracking the development of the larger, 7 or 8 member parties.

good luck as you experiment!

[Ziggurat]

Speaking of new parties, I started one just to try something new. I think I really like the four-char parties better after you have been thru the game a few times. (Haven't abandoned my last one of six, just need a change). Here's the current one. Should be interesting:

Ktrarr M Felpur Rogue
Sybiline F Human Monk
Whist M Mook Ranger
Jennazare F Elf Bishop

They are all strong characters, just haven't seen this combination. Still working thru the Monastery. I think this party will work if I build up both magic and melee with Monk and Ranger, to some extent (focusing on melee and their primary magic realm). The extra levels should help. This is one of those weird ones, I think, but it has promise. Been easy so far but you know how THAT can go...

[dplax]

If you don't want to be caught in another battle after a battle, then think about using X-ray, which is one of the best buffs in the game.

[petertmorgan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by allstargoaly:
[QB] Petertmorgan, I was also thinking about your party.

You said that you have 3 characters in the front row and the Alcem in the middle. Stop right there...

Put the Ranger on the outside and the Valk on the outside. The Ranger should be just fine on the outside (uses long range). The Valk should be fine too (assuming that you are using a EXTENDED WEAPON, a.k.a. polearm). The Valk can still hit in melee from the side because the EXTENDED WEAPON can reach from there. This way you can inclose the Alcem. (protecting his low health butt).

If not put the Ranger next to the Alcem in the middle (pushing the Alcem to the right side of the middle). This will allow the Ranger to still attack from long range; as well as, protect the Alcem (sort of). Basically the only way you can damage the Alcem is from behind or from the right side (if he is on the right side of the middle).

See if that doesn't work better in protecting the Alcem.
-------
Thanks for the advice. I thought about those kinds of arrangements but I haven't so far for a few reasons. First, none of my three front-liners is really strong enough (hit points/armor/melee killing power) to hold a formation slot alone (with all three together then it's less likely one will get ganged-up on). Second, I am developing dual weapons for the ranger, so I don't want her to miss out on front-line combat. Also, I'm concentrating on magic for ranged attacks, so ranged combat/bow is going up slowly in the ranger. I think I will take your advice when the party is stronger and each of the front three are more deadly. So far, I haven't had too many situations where my Alchemist was exposed on the side for more than a round or two.

[Cataephract]

Originally posted by EEWorzelle: quote: Originally posted by sultan: quote: Originally posted by EEWorzelle: It is horrible advice, IMHO, to tell a new player to repeat characters in their party.

oh, eew, how do we get into these discussions? particularly since they are off-topic for the thread at hand...
[/QUOTE]Interesting. I'm kind of surprised you found my comments to be off topic here (although I am often "guilty" of that when a thread drifts into a divergent but interesting area - it's the nature of discussion, I guess).

Cataephract, early in this thread gave the advice:

Originally posted by Cataephract: Beginner's party: 3 fighters, 1 bard, a priest, and a mage

Advice like this, with repeated characters is also given as a "great party for beginners" on the VN boards, from time to time.

It's a rotten trick to play on a player new to Wizardry 8. They buy this game, thinking they are going to have a great time, but instead find the combats boring and repetitive.

Those who give this advice for beginning players rarely, if ever, actually played a party like that (it wasn't the first party for those posting that advice on the VN boards). I have seen several times, where players naively and trustingly, thinking that those of us who advise have their fun at heart, take that advice. Some, after they play through the entire game like that, come back and report not having much fun. I don't blame them. It is very rare to see people who actually play the entire Wizardry 8 game that were bored, but I have seen it in this case. I'm not talking about the players that hit Arnika road and quit for a variety of reasons.

There is an arrogance among some Players (I'm not talking about you, Sultan, as far as I know), that makes them think they can handle all sorts of variety of characters, weapons and even strategies, but that other players new to the game are too stupid or ignorant to do so. There is no reason to expect that the smartest players who will ever play this game have already played it. It is insulting and demeaning to the new player to suggest to them that they should stick to only one type of character in the front line (for example), when they are starting out. Did you? Even if easy is desired, there are many easy parties in the game, with lots of variety.

Yes I love the variety of characters in this game, and the way they can all be powerful if developed well, but my comments were unselfishly on behalf of the new player, based upon evidence I have seen of new players getting bored with the game when actually taking such advice and playing parties like that. Many of us who keep playing Wizardry 8 have played lots of parties, so if one is a bummer or boring, no big deal. A lot of RPG players out there, however, will not change parties, and will finish the game with their first one. If they only play it for a few levels, it hardly matters but the whole game, it does.

When advice like that is given to new players that is likely to hurt their enjoyment of the game, that is simply mean. I can easily be wrong in any post, but do my best to communicate truth and feel it is important, relevant and worth posting in this case, to any new player actually considering taking that advice. This thread is about party ideas and my post is no more off topic than the previous post which gave, IMHO, the bad advice for the beginning player.

Now I hope nobody jumps to the conclusion that I am claiming repeated characters are always a bad idea or are not fun. I didn't say that and am claiming no such thing. I am talking about the intelligent and capable beginner (i.e. any beginner) who, wisely or unwisely, might come to this very board or another looking for suggestions for their party. For example, I have no disagreement with allstargoaly's post that CT also followed up on. Sounds like fun. The best Ranged-Party ideas I have ever seen (by GreaterDemon on the VN boards) had some repeated characters. Beginners may certainly choose a party such as one of those, and that's great. That's very different than what I am suggesting is mean.

Finally, I don't mean to pick on Cataephract, even though I disagree with most of the conclusions. I actually recognize a lot of my own advice for Bard and Alchemist development (by coincidence or reuse - it doesn't matter).

The advice for the beginner theatens new players fun, however, and is important. It probably isn't meant viciously and is probably just repeating what somebody else posted. I think if a party is going to be recommended to a new player that the one doing the recommending ought to have played it through to the end and attest that they had a great time doing so. Then recommend it. [/QUOTE]I've got to say, EEworzelle, that you are much more civil and open to true discussion than people on some boards are. So don't worry, I don't feel picked on. The 3 fighter/bard/priest/mage party was my very first party, and one I eventually played through to Ascension, and enjoyed it. I had only ever played up to Wiz5, and completely missed 6 and 7, so when I started a wiz8 party, I went with the same party I had played through those early games, and so, within the frame of reference I had, that seemed like a good "standard" party. I still think it is a good party for getting used to the mechanics of the game, and getting through tough areas with a minimum of frustration and and a maximum of enjoyment. Yes, your posts have influenced my party design, just as Atlus7's have influenced character design. But I stand by these parties, and have played them all to the end.

Originally posted by Cataephract: I've got to say, EEworzelle, that you are much more civil and open to true discussion than people on some boards are.

indeed he is, cat. as is yourself. that's why IW is the best wiz8 board out there.

*group hug*

[dplax]

And also people give advice freely, and discussions don't get heated.

P.S. "joins group hug"