Alien vs Predator - Page 3

Luvian · 08-19-2004, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
I agree his review was probably overly harsh, but he has several good points. Yeah, the humans took the guns in an earlier scene, but his point was "WHY didn't the Pred's have their guns with them on the spaceship???" In the first two movies, the Pred's were facing a much easier prey (puny humans instead of acid-bleeding, spike tailed Aliens) and they came "loaded for bear" from the word go. In the first movie, the original Predator blasted several of Arnie's guys with his patented shoulder canon...so why didn't these "Chosen Champions" enter the "Arena of Combat" fully armed???

And the reviewer already said not to mention any thoughts about the Pred's having to "jump through hoops" in the Battle. Now, I don't totally agree with that. Surviving long enough to reach your plasma-blasting shoulder cannon might be a justified part of the Ritualistic Hunt itself...but he does have a point about it not being consistent with the first two movies where the Pred was armed to the teeth with hugely superior weaponry.

I can understand that he's judging the fact that they went without guns, but we knew they didn't have them. So him keeping asking why they didn't use their shoulder gun is pretty stupid.

If you remember well, picking up the guns is what activated the temple, so it was actually the key. They had to pick them up to proceed, they were not going unarmed.

When they saw the human pickup the guns, they started runing to get in.

Cerek the Barbaric · 08-19-2004, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luvian:
I can understand that he's judging the fact that they went without guns, but we knew they didn't have them. So him keeping asking why they didn't use their shoulder gun is pretty stupid.

If you remember well, picking up the guns is what activated the temple, so it was actually the key. They had to pick them up to proceed, they were not going unarmed.

When they saw the human pickup the guns, they started runing to get in.

Very valid points again. The guns were the key, so presumably the Hunt wasn't actually supposed to begin until the Pred's were fully armed. But the Queen had already begun the "Alien Adversary" production line (which was operating at a hyper-accelerated speed for some reason) and their Adversaries were already hatched, full grown and stalking about the temple waiting on them to show up.

I know he kept ranting about the lackof guns (and some of his comments did get overly tiresome), but I still found a lot of humor AND a lot of valid points in his rant against the almost complete lack of continuity or consistency in the storyline. I still liked the movie and will definitely add it to my DVD collection when the time comes - but I also thought the review was "spot on" in many cases and downright hilarious in others.

pritchke · 08-19-2004, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luvian:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
I agree his review was probably overly harsh, but he has several good points. Yeah, the humans took the guns in an earlier scene, but his point was "WHY didn't the Pred's have their guns with them on the spaceship???" In the first two movies, the Pred's were facing a much easier prey (puny humans instead of acid-bleeding, spike tailed Aliens) and they came "loaded for bear" from the word go. In the first movie, the original Predator blasted several of Arnie's guys with his patented shoulder canon...so why didn't these "Chosen Champions" enter the "Arena of Combat" fully armed???

And the reviewer already said not to mention any thoughts about the Pred's having to "jump through hoops" in the Battle. Now, I don't totally agree with that. Surviving long enough to reach your plasma-blasting shoulder cannon might be a justified part of the Ritualistic Hunt itself...but he does have a point about it not being consistent with the first two movies where the Pred was armed to the teeth with hugely superior weaponry.

I can understand that he's judging the fact that they went without guns, but we knew they didn't have them. So him keeping asking why they didn't use their shoulder gun is pretty stupid.

If you remember well, picking up the guns is what activated the temple, so it was actually the key. They had to pick them up to proceed, they were not going unarmed.

When they saw the human pickup the guns, they started runing to get in. [/QUOTE]I often found Predators kind of funny or unpredictable. They are hunters but do they hunt for survival, or the trill of the hunt? From Predator 2 we sort of see that they have some sort of honor code or something in the last fight scene. Why did they let the cop live when they could have killed them during the fight or even after he won, at any time. If you look at predator 1 thay probaly have the technology to destroy earth if thay wanted to. Apparently they only use these explosive devises to keep technology out of the hands of there prey (humans). And use only enough to destroy the area with the ship and technology in it. Do we really know the predator? Who are we puny humans to judge why they don't take there most formiddable weapons to battle? 

[ 08-19-2004, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Luvian · 08-19-2004, 02:58 PM

I agree that the review was entertaining, I even bookmarked the site to read his other.

But they are not a suitable tool for someone to base himself to decide if a movie is worth seeing or not. The author put more attention to bashing the movie and entertaining than in doing a real review.

By the way, yes the aliens were active, but they were traped below. I guess they needed an head start to be challenging for the predators.

[ 08-19-2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

Cerek the Barbaric · 08-20-2004, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pritchke:
I often found Predators kind of funny or unpredictable. They are hunters but do they hunt for survival, or the trill of the hunt? From Predator 2 we sort of see that they have some sort of honor code or something in the last fight scene. Why did they let the cop live when they could have killed them during the fight or even after he won, at any time. If you look at predator 1 thay probaly have the technology to destroy earth if thay wanted to. Apparently they only use these explosive devises to keep technology out of the hands of there prey (humans). And use only enough to destroy the area with the ship and technology in it. Do we really know the predator? Who are we puny humans to judge why they don't take there most formiddable weapons to battle?

Predators definitely are sport hunters - but it goes beyond that. Hunting is a Rite of Passage for them and also a means of measuring their social status. I see their culture as maybe a combination of Norse Vikings and Native Americans. Tests of "Manhood" are challenging and dangerous (even to the point of being life-threatening) and glory in battle is the standard by which each individual is measured in society.

In some Native American tribes, killing enemies in battle was very important, but HOW you killed them was even MORE important. In one Mid-Western tribe I read about, the "ultimate honor" was for a warrior to "stake himself" on the battlefield. He would tie his ankle to a small wooden stake, then drive it in the ground. This meant that he could NOT run from the enemy - no matter how fierce the battle became. This was often done by older warriors who were trying to gain the ultimate glory before their death.

As for the Predators allowing Danny Glover to live at the end of Predator 2, he had defeated their own warrior in single combat - which proved his own worth as a warrior. Predators respect skilled warriors above anything else in their society (or at least seem to anyway). So for a puny human to defeat one of their own in combat was an impressive feat and worthy of honor. They are apparantly bred for battle from birth, so they have high respect for any creature that can actually defeat one of their warriors in battle.

So why did the 1st Predator set off a nuke and the 2nd one didn't - wellllll, it wouldn't really have been a "happy ending" if Glover won but L.A. got nuked in the process.

Also, Glover cut off one of the Predators hands slightly above the wrist. And (IIRC), it was the left hand he cut off. That is the arm that has the mini-nuke on it. So it's also possible that the 2nd Predator didn't have his nuke at the end. Besides, if you remember, the battle in Predator 2 actually ended inside the spaceship...so the Predator wouldn't have endangered the rest of his comrades just to win the battle.

Morgeruat · 08-20-2004, 01:30 PM

from a poster where I found the original link:

Burseq:I know a fair bit about the Yautja (Predators) and how their society works, and a bit about the Aliens themselves. To me, it is painfully clear that this guy did no background research at all, and maybe only heard about the Predator films from a mate rather than actually watched them.

If he had, he would have known that the Yautja are in fact cold blooded (only in the hottest months this happens, and this year it grows hot...) so there is absolutley no way in hell that they would touch down in a place like Antartica!

They also actually haven't had much to do with Humanity until recently. They tend to avoid human colonies as they are more dnagerous to hunt than the Aliens since we have all guns and stuff and are smarter.

Actually, thinking about it now, it is likely he has read one of the Aliens vs Predator graphic novels, as many of his plot elemts are lifted directly from it. It's one where a human farm colony was used as a hunting ground for a group of Yautja (they just so happen to have touched down at a bad time - all the Yautja hunting grounds have been used for centuries and Alien infestation is planned by a transport vessel sending out a predetermined ammount of eggs). A lot of the stuff that happens in the film happened in that - the whole ritual scarring thing, a Yautja teaming up with a woman (only because it was badly injured in a fight and they help bring him back to full health, thereby earning his gratitude), both of them teaming up to help kill a queen (which shouldn't have been there, the Yautja never allow queen eggs to touch down on a planet, lest they loose control of the degree of infestation, but the Queen on board the breeding ship managed to let a queen egg slip through by blocking the scanning device with the tip of her egg-laying thing) and before he dies he gives his partner a ritual scar using a finger from the Queen. Also, the woman in the end earns the respect of the Yautja by displaying her kills, especially the Queen, and by showing them the ritual marking on her forehead.

The Yautja themselves were handled pretty badly too - that small ammount of Aliens should have been absolutely no bother at all for them to kill in hand to hand - that's what they're trained for. A hunting party like that can be expected to deal with maybe a hundred Aliens or more. Plus, their weapons are designed for hunting those things, and so are impervious to the acid.

Seems to me he just saw the comic and thought he could make a film out of it that that he could pretend was all his own idea.

and another because I feel like adding fuel to the fire

Vyre_Sel:
Well they show up with melee weapons (which were apparently purchased from Predator Walmart or something, judging from their low quality) but the shoulder cannons were hidden in this little maze of death training dungeon thing.

No, really.

The entire treatment of the Predators reminded me of inane comic book writers who can't handle Superman's appropriate power level and so tone him down. For one thing there were only THREE of the damn things, two of which get fragged early on; and they are seperated from their high-tech edge through a lame plot device. Even when he gets the goddamn cannon, he only uses it for about five seconds before a rampaging plot devi... I mean alien hits it away.

And seriously, if you're going to do a movie where aliens and predators fight, then have them FIGHT IN YOUR DAMN MOVIE! Sheesh, I was really looking forward to a high degree of mindless extraterrestrial beatdowns with minimal plot; WHICH I WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE WITH! But as it turns out it's like 90% sh*tty plot and 10% poorly orchestrated fights (okay, "Pred" was pretty badass with his casual decapitation of the alien, but other than that...).

Morgeruat · 08-20-2004, 01:32 PM

He did miss something in the rant...a problem that anyone with a simple grasp of junior-high algebra and geometry should catch...

We know that the pyramid is buried 2,000 meters under the surface.

We also know from dialogue that the shaft drilled by the Predators from orbit with their particle beam weapon is at a precise 30-degree angle, leading from the whaling camp straight to the pyramid.

So here's the math problem: You have a Right Triangle with the vertical leg being 2,000 meters and the hypotenuse rising at a 30-degree angle. How long is the horizontal leg (from which you can deduce via the Pythagorean Theorem the length of the hypotenuse (i.e. the hole in the ice)?

I see some hands. Yes, Spoony?

The horizontal leg -- that is, the lateral distance from the camp to the pyramid -- is 4,000 meters. Thus, the hypotenuse, the length of the hole in the ice, is (2,000 x 2,000) + (4,000 x 4,000) = 20,000,000, of which the square root is approximately 4,472.1. Thus we get a length of nearly 4.5 kilometers -- which by an extraordinary coincidence is precisely how much of the Shaft anyone watching this movie got from the producers...

Good! And when they said that the pyramid was 'directly underneath' the whaling camp, what were they doing?

That's right -- they were LYING.

And their ability to use a portable winch and cable to lower a sled down more than 2 3/4 miles, and then haul it back up again at superspeed?

IMPOSSIBLE.

Luvian · 08-20-2004, 11:36 PM

Burseq has way better points than that other guy.

Cerek the Barbaric · 08-21-2004, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morgeruat:
from a poster where I found the original link:

Burseq:I know a fair bit about the Yautja (Predators) and how their society works, and a bit about the Aliens themselves. To me, it is painfully clear that this guy did no background research at all, and maybe only heard about the Predator films from a mate rather than actually watched them.

If he had, he would have known that the Yautja are in fact cold blooded (only in the hottest months this happens, and this year it grows hot...) so there is absolutley no way in hell that they would touch down in a place like Antartica!

That was the first glaring problem I saw too. It was stated repeatedly in the two movies that the Predators are drawn by "heat and conflict". I have to agree that Antarctica would literally be "the LAST place on Earth" you would expect to see a Predator.

Quote:

They also actually haven't had much to do with Humanity until recently. They tend to avoid human colonies as they are more dnagerous to hunt than the Aliens since we have all guns and stuff and are smarter.

I'm not so sure about this point. The Predator in the 2nd movie certainly didn't seemed to be bothered about entering a "human colony". He entered one of the largest and most heavily populated "colonies" possible.

As for humans being more dangerous than Aliens....mmmmmmaybe, I guess. But again, Predator 2 wasn't bothered by it. He took out several gangmembers, a drug lord and his bodyguards, and even a secret military unit that knew his fighting tactics and came equipped with super high-tech weaponry and technology to offset it. Yet the Predator STILL jumped down right in the middle of this elite, secret military unit and wiped them out like a bunch of schoolyard bullies.

I'm not doubting Burseq's knowledge, I'm just going by the first two movies (never read the comics). I always felt like the first movie may have been a young, mature Predator that was still perfecting his battle skills while the second movie dealt with a seasoned veteran that was capable of handling the increased challenge of heavily armed, multiple opponents.

Oh well, I still liked the movie, despite it's flaws. I do agree with the 2nd guy that - if the movie says Alien vs Predator - then let's see some serious fighting, mayhem and general carnage between these two deadly alien races. It's a GUY movie - we don't need no steeeeenkin' plot. Just give us High Action/Low Plot and we're good to go. [img]graemlins/fighting.gif[/img]

Luvian · 08-21-2004, 01:24 AM

Maybe they don't like attacking humans, but that doesn't mean some of them don't do it.

08-19-2004, 02:58 PM	#24
Luvian Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 27, 2001 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Age: 44 Posts: 6,766	I agree that the review was entertaining, I even bookmarked the site to read his other. But they are not a suitable tool for someone to base himself to decide if a movie is worth seeing or not. The author put more attention to bashing the movie and entertaining than in doing a real review. By the way, yes the aliens were active, but they were traped below. I guess they needed an head start to be challenging for the predators. [ 08-19-2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ] __________________ Once upon a time in Canada...

08-20-2004, 01:32 PM	#27
Morgeruat Jack Burton Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: PA Age: 45 Posts: 5,421	He did miss something in the rant...a problem that anyone with a simple grasp of junior-high algebra and geometry should catch... We know that the pyramid is buried 2,000 meters under the surface. We also know from dialogue that the shaft drilled by the Predators from orbit with their particle beam weapon is at a precise 30-degree angle, leading from the whaling camp straight to the pyramid. So here's the math problem: You have a Right Triangle with the vertical leg being 2,000 meters and the hypotenuse rising at a 30-degree angle. How long is the horizontal leg (from which you can deduce via the Pythagorean Theorem the length of the hypotenuse (i.e. the hole in the ice)? I see some hands. Yes, Spoony? The horizontal leg -- that is, the lateral distance from the camp to the pyramid -- is 4,000 meters. Thus, the hypotenuse, the length of the hole in the ice, is (2,000 x 2,000) + (4,000 x 4,000) = 20,000,000, of which the square root is approximately 4,472.1. Thus we get a length of nearly 4.5 kilometers -- which by an extraordinary coincidence is precisely how much of the Shaft anyone watching this movie got from the producers... Good! And when they said that the pyramid was 'directly underneath' the whaling camp, what were they doing? That's right -- they were LYING. And their ability to use a portable winch and cable to lower a sled down more than 2 3/4 miles, and then haul it back up again at superspeed? IMPOSSIBLE. __________________ "Any attempt to cheat, especially with my wife, who is a dirty, dirty, tramp, and I am just gonna snap." Knibb High Principal - Billy Madison

08-20-2004, 11:36 PM	#28
Luvian Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 27, 2001 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Age: 44 Posts: 6,766	Burseq has way better points than that other guy. __________________ Once upon a time in Canada...

08-21-2004, 01:24 AM	#30
Luvian Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 27, 2001 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Age: 44 Posts: 6,766	Maybe they don't like attacking humans, but that doesn't mean some of them don't do it. __________________ Once upon a time in Canada...

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08-20-2004, 01:30 PM	#26
Morgeruat Jack Burton Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: PA Age: 45 Posts: 5,421	from a poster where I found the original link: Burseq:I know a fair bit about the Yautja (Predators) and how their society works, and a bit about the Aliens themselves. To me, it is painfully clear that this guy did no background research at all, and maybe only heard about the Predator films from a mate rather than actually watched them. If he had, he would have known that the Yautja are in fact cold blooded (only in the hottest months this happens, and this year it grows hot...) so there is absolutley no way in hell that they would touch down in a place like Antartica! They also actually haven't had much to do with Humanity until recently. They tend to avoid human colonies as they are more dnagerous to hunt than the Aliens since we have all guns and stuff and are smarter. Actually, thinking about it now, it is likely he has read one of the Aliens vs Predator graphic novels, as many of his plot elemts are lifted directly from it. It's one where a human farm colony was used as a hunting ground for a group of Yautja (they just so happen to have touched down at a bad time - all the Yautja hunting grounds have been used for centuries and Alien infestation is planned by a transport vessel sending out a predetermined ammount of eggs). A lot of the stuff that happens in the film happened in that - the whole ritual scarring thing, a Yautja teaming up with a woman (only because it was badly injured in a fight and they help bring him back to full health, thereby earning his gratitude), both of them teaming up to help kill a queen (which shouldn't have been there, the Yautja never allow queen eggs to touch down on a planet, lest they loose control of the degree of infestation, but the Queen on board the breeding ship managed to let a queen egg slip through by blocking the scanning device with the tip of her egg-laying thing) and before he dies he gives his partner a ritual scar using a finger from the Queen. Also, the woman in the end earns the respect of the Yautja by displaying her kills, especially the Queen, and by showing them the ritual marking on her forehead. The Yautja themselves were handled pretty badly too - that small ammount of Aliens should have been absolutely no bother at all for them to kill in hand to hand - that's what they're trained for. A hunting party like that can be expected to deal with maybe a hundred Aliens or more. Plus, their weapons are designed for hunting those things, and so are impervious to the acid. Seems to me he just saw the comic and thought he could make a film out of it that that he could pretend was all his own idea. and another because I feel like adding fuel to the fire Vyre_Sel: Well they show up with melee weapons (which were apparently purchased from Predator Walmart or something, judging from their low quality) but the shoulder cannons were hidden in this little maze of death training dungeon thing. No, really. The entire treatment of the Predators reminded me of inane comic book writers who can't handle Superman's appropriate power level and so tone him down. For one thing there were only THREE of the damn things, two of which get fragged early on; and they are seperated from their high-tech edge through a lame plot device. Even when he gets the goddamn cannon, he only uses it for about five seconds before a rampaging plot devi... I mean alien hits it away. And seriously, if you're going to do a movie where aliens and predators fight, then have them FIGHT IN YOUR DAMN MOVIE! Sheesh, I was really looking forward to a high degree of mindless extraterrestrial beatdowns with minimal plot; WHICH I WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE WITH! But as it turns out it's like 90% sh*tty plot and 10% poorly orchestrated fights (okay, "Pred" was pretty badass with his casual decapitation of the alien, but other than that...).

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