R.A. Salvatore is the man!!!!!!!

[Nanobyte]

If you enjoy reading Salvatore's work, you might like Cunningham's. I'm not sure you'd consider them as having the same writing style, but Cunningham's Starlight&Shadows trilogy is very well done.

[Sythe]

To me I don't really like Cunninghams writing. But then again I only have read one of her books (Daugter of the Drow). I will give her another chance by reading Elfshadow which I have heard is very good.

[Jerr Conner]

Spoilers Rampant...

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I still don't see too many flaws in his books.

Drizzt zealot? He is Chaotic Good. Anyway, you'd all have to give me examples of how zealous he is. Sure, he does moralize about Artemis Entreri, however that's because he could have become Entreri, or close enough to the assassin. Plus, comparing him to a Paladin? Correct me if I'm wrong (Since a friend told me this), but Paladins don't associte with evil, or aren't supposed to. On Two occassions, Drizzt had to fight side by side with Entreri. Most Paladins would have refused.

Plus, i love the character development. Drizzt starts off not wanting to kill other Drow, no matter what, but eventually he learns it's racist of him to be able to kill a human but not a Drow. He starts off as Catti-Brie's friend but ends up developing feelings for her. Bruenor starts off hating Drizzt, then ends up befriending the elf despite their racial differences. He enters Mithrall Hall, then finds that his nostalgia wasn't a good thing and he over-hyped it in his mind. He loses Wulfgar, goes into a very deep depression, but eventually finds he has to move on in life. Regis goes from a slacker to someone who actually wants to be able to contribute. Cattie-Brie falls in love with Wulfgar, then loses him. She also develops feelings for Drizzt. She goes through the least plot, IMO. As for Wulfgar, he's literally been through hell!

As far as trivializing death, it can only be trivialized if a character actually died. Bruenor didn't die, and it was just a little obvious that he wouldn't considering he had Drizzt's Icingdeath with him at the time (I figured if it hurts Demons used to fire, then it probably has fire protection). Wulfgar didn't die, the Yochlol bought him to Llolth.

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Plus, I think it's a bit unfair to compare any author to someone else. Of course you're going to find someone better, in fact as far as this whole hack thing goes technically every modern Novelist is a hack since everything has been done before in some way or another.

Finally, very few books can evoke emotions in me, and Salvatore's Drizzt novels are one of the few collections that do.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: Halfling! Which books? (Can't be Regis, though he's my favorite he's no fighter :C( )

<font color=deepskyblue>No, it isn't Rumblebelly (I never did care very much for him). The halfling I'm referring to is named Oliver de Burrows and is a duelist/thief. He can be found in <font color=crimson>The Crimson Shadow</font> trilogy.

The three books of this series are...
<font color=lime>The Sword of Bedwyr
Luthien's Gamble
The Dragon King</font>

It's an entertaining series. The hero is the typical, overpowered fighter type, but the storyline is a little different for Salvatore. Some parts are predictable, but others are not. He brings together another good cast of adventuring friends, but Oliver de Burrows is constantly entertaining. He is a thief who is also very skilled with the rapier in melee.

After one fight with several opponents, the hero half teases/half chastises Oliver for attacking the opponents in the groin area, implying it isn't a very "fair" fighting method. Oliver just looks at him and says something like "How am I supposed to hit them any higher....I'm a halfling" He really has lots of good lines like that.

One of his funniest lines - and a typical example of his dialogue - occurs when he and the hero are sneaking into the enemy stronghold through the sewers. Most of the enemy guards consist of a race of orc-like creatures that have only one eye. As the Oliver is climbing the ladder up from the sewers, one of these creatures opens the lid to the latrine directly above him and sits down. Oliver turns back to the hero and says "They're just as ugly from this end." That's a good example of the wit he displays throughout the trilogy.

As for the criticism of Salvatore's books taking on a "cookie-cutter" methodology, you have to remember that he basically became a victim of his own success. The Ice Wind Dale trilogy skyrocketed his popularity and career. EVERYBODY wanted to see more of Drizzt. But Salvatore was writing books for other publishers and in other fantasy settings at the same time. During the 90's, he wrote somewhere around 30-40 books. Since he wasn't really popular until the very early 90's, he suddenly had to crank out a LOT of books in a short amount of time. In one sense, I guess you could say he became the Harley Quinn Romance writer of TSR novels. They wanted so much from him regarding Drizzt and wanted it so fast, there is little wonder that he didn't have time to develop new and/or original plots or storylines for each and everyone. When you are under such a time crunch, you don't really have time to deviate from the standard formula.

I think he finally decided he had become popular enough to start actually turning down some projects, so hopefully the original style of IWD that created so many loyal fans will return to his future works.</font>

[Azaghal]

After getting acquainted with Drizzt through the BG series and all the mentioning and recommending of the novels on this forum I bought the Dark Elf and the Icewind Dale Trilogy. I found them to be pretty much what I expected: Good reading stuff with several highlights but also no match to the "serious" fantasy authors. With that I mean those dedicated to inventing and describing a whole world in which their characters are only wanderers that take us along. Tolkien or Feist or Pratchett are a completely different level than Salvatore.

[Jerr Conner]

Thanks Cerec, I have some new books to buy.

It's true that the D&D universe isn't Salvatore's to begin with, but I still enjoy his work just as much as Tolkien's (Kind of like I enjoy Dennis L/ McKiernan's work as much as Tolkien's, though he definitely tends to be a bit repetitive).

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Azaghal: After getting acquainted with Drizzt through the BG series and all the mentioning and recommending of the novels on this forum I bought the Dark Elf and the Icewind Dale Trilogy. I found them to be pretty much what I expected: Good reading stuff with several highlights but also no match to the "serious" fantasy authors. With that I mean those dedicated to inventing and describing a whole world in which their characters are only wanderers that take us along. Tolkien or Feist or Pratchett are a completely different level than Salvatore.

<font color=deepskyblue>R.A. Salvatore DID create his own fantasy world and has written a number of books set there. Check out the Demon War Saga series. For more information on R.A. Salvatore's books, you can go to R.A. Salvatore's website.</font>

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: Spoilers Rampant... . . . . I still don't see too many flaws in his books. Drizzt zealot? He is Chaotic Good. Anyway, you'd all have to give me examples of how zealous he is. Sure, he does moralize about Artemis Entreri, however that's because he could have become Entreri, or close enough to the assassin. Plus, comparing him to a Paladin? Correct me if I'm wrong (Since a friend told me this), but Paladins don't associte with evil, or aren't supposed to. On Two occassions, Drizzt had to fight side by side with Entreri. Most Paladins would have refused. Plus, i love the character development. Drizzt starts off not wanting to kill other Drow, no matter what, but eventually he learns it's racist of him to be able to kill a human but not a Drow. He starts off as Catti-Brie's friend but ends up developing feelings for her. Bruenor starts off hating Drizzt, then ends up befriending the elf despite their racial differences. He enters Mithrall Hall, then finds that his nostalgia wasn't a good thing and he over-hyped it in his mind. He loses Wulfgar, goes into a very deep depression, but eventually finds he has to move on in life. Regis goes from a slacker to someone who actually wants to be able to contribute. Cattie-Brie falls in love with Wulfgar, then loses him. She also develops feelings for Drizzt. She goes through the least plot, IMO. As for Wulfgar, he's literally been through hell! As far as trivializing death, it can only be trivialized if a character actually died. Bruenor didn't die, and it was just a little obvious that he wouldn't considering he had Drizzt's Icingdeath with him at the time (I figured if it hurts Demons used to fire, then it probably has fire protection). Wulfgar didn't die, the Yochlol bought him to Llolth. . . Plus, I think it's a bit unfair to compare any author to someone else. Of course you're going to find someone better, in fact as far as this whole hack thing goes technically every modern Novelist is a hack since everything has been done before in some way or another. Finally, very few books can evoke emotions in me, and Salvatore's Drizzt novels are one of the few collections that do.

That's why we consider him too zealot. He don't want to kill drows? Come on! Their whole society is based on killing drows, it's their ways of life. They are brainwashed in doing so since birth! His father is an assasin and his mother is a priestess of loth... How can he care so much about not killing? He's always like that, acting like a phylosopher and a pacifist, only killing as a last resort and feeling bad for it. Does he ever get mad at people? Does he ever curse, have bad thought about people?

And for that mather, what law did he disrespect? He act more like a lawfull good guy than a chaotic good guy. Sure, he "like" to be alone, but he's still more lawfull than most townspeople.

I'm not saying he should be some kind of bloodthirsty barbarian, but he should make mistakes and act badly sometimes. How can I relate to a perfect character? He's a paladin with black skin, not a drow exile trying to make a new life in a relatively hostile world.

When we say Salvatore trivialize death, we mean we know the good guys will always win and the villains lose. Drizzt and his friend could be fighting an army of demons, giants and dragons and we know they would all survive. I certainly wouldn't get nervous and have the urge to go take a peek at the next chapter to be sure everything will be ok. He'd never permanently kill one of his main character, or have them fail someting important. As an example, do you think he would ever kill Cattie Brie? Certainly not. Would the ten towns ever be destroyed and all the villagers killed by an army of orcs? Of course not...

As Memnoch once said somewhere, those are "feelgood" novels. There's nothing really wrong with those, but to me it feel a lot better when the good guys finally win if they lost a lot and frustrated me first. Winnng doesn't feel like an achievement if all they did is win. It's like a multimilionaire winning the lottery... Wow! I'd be so excited for him...

What's even better is when I can't tell who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, just like in real life...

[ 03-01-2004, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Jerr Conner]

Originally posted by Luvian: That's why we consider him too zealot. He don't want to kill drows? Come on! Their whole society is based on killing drows, it's their ways of life. They are brainwashed in doing so since birth! His father is an assasin and his mother is a priestess of loth... How can he care so much about not killing? He's always like that, acting like a phylosopher and a pacifist, only killing as a last resort and feeling bad for it. Does he ever get mad at people? Does he ever curse, have bad thought about people?

That's not zealotry, it's racism. And as I mentioned, he came to that realization, and decided he minus will kill drow if they're threatening people.

Yes he did get mad at people.

He got mad at Artemis Entreri for the things he did to Regis, as well as his treatment of Catti-Brie.

He may not have actual bad thoughts about people, but he get's close to it. Look at how he views the Carnival (I can't remember the full name, but it's a show where people are tortured for the peasents entertainment).

And for that mather, what law did he disrespect? He act more like a lawfull good guy than a chaotic good guy. Sure, he "like" to be alone, but he's still more lawfull than most townspeople.

What laws can he disrespect when he doesn't even frequent cities that much? This is a bad argument for him acting lawful good when there's barely any proof that he has frequented cities on occassion. Besides, he definitely didn't obey Drow law after a while.

I'm not saying he should be some kind of bloodthirsty barbarian, but he should make mistakes and act badly sometimes. How can I relate to a perfect character? He's a paladin with black skin, not a drow exile trying to make a new life in a relatively hostile world.

He has made mistakes. In the Halfling's Gem, he practically abandoned his friends to fight Artemis Entreri in the sewers. In Legacy of the Drow, he thought that the only way for him to find peace with his past was to go back to Menzoberanzan so his friends wouldn't suffer anymore. Both of those in account, are mistakes, because those were selfish actions.

Even in The Silent Blade, he thought maybe Wulfgar would find peace if he did die, though he didn't want to see his friend go nor die.

When we say Salvatore trivialize death, we mean we know the good guys will always win and the villains lose. Drizzt and his friend could be fighting an army of demons, giants and dragons and we know they would all survive. I certainly wouldn't get nervous and have the urge to go take a peek at the next chapter to be sure everything will be ok. He'd never permanently kill one of his main character, or have them fail someting important. As an example, do you think he would ever kill Cattie Brie? Certainly not. Would the ten towns ever be destroyed and all the villagers killed by an army of orcs? Of course not...

The good guys don't always win. Jarlaxle certainly won a victory at the end of The Silent Blade when he attained and kept Creshinibon. The bad guys won when they stole Wulfgar from his friends. They even won when Wulfgar became a drunk just to escape Errtu's continuing torture.

If anything, life is nothing but short victories and losses.

As Memnoch once said somewhere, those are "feelgood" novels. There's nothing really wrong with those, but to me it feel a lot better when the good guys finally win if they lost a lot and frustrated me first. Winnng doesn't feel like an achievement if all they did is win. It's like a multimilionaire winning the lottery... Wow! I'd be so excited for him... What's even better is when I can't tell who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, just like in real life...

True, those are good books as well, but RA Salvatore has written some of it into the novels. Morik the Rogue, for instance, can't be considered a good or bad guy. Neither can Jarlaxle. Even Entreri, in The Silent Blade, wasn't quite a bad guy until the end.

As far as suspense, I'm reading the Paths of Darkness Collector's Edition, and I kept worrying that he'd kill off Regis (My favorite character) in the first book alone, and after reading a summary of The Lone Drow on Amazon, I'm worried he may still kill off Regis, and some of the other characters.

And as I've mentioned before, would not a Paladin havve just killed off Entreri to begin with?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: <font color=deepskyblue>So I know about Wulfgar and now I've learned about Zak. Who was the 3rd character that Salvatore resurrected?</font>

Salvatore "resurrected" Bruenor for after he fell into the cavern with Shimmergloom with a powderkeg strapped to his back -- IWD # 2. I think this one was planned -- he WAS carrying Drizzt's sword in his belt which gave him some immunity to the fire.

He "killed" Artemis as well at the end of one of his books by knocking him over a cliff, but a spiderweb saved him.

Then there was Wulfgar and the Yochlol and the tons of granite that fell on his head.

Then there was Zaknafien -- who was not resurrected so much as raised as a Zin-Carla psuedo-zombie to fight Drizzt. I for one didn't really buy into Drizzt making the Zak zombie "snap out of it," but as Bob Salvatore basically had defined drow society more than anyone else up to that point, I felt he deserved to define Zin-Carla however he pleased.

Now, outside of the D&D world, Salvatore has performed at least one notable execution in his books -- namely, Chewbacca.

Finally, you may remember Jarlaxle hooking Drizzt and Artemis up in their most recent fight to the death -- which Artemis won. Artemis left the fight thinking Drizzt was dead, but IIRC Jarlaxle revived him.