JRR Tolkien: The Two Towers

[Tancred]

A few possible answers...

The Elves could well have theoretically held the Deeping Wall indefinitely. They were doing pretty damn well as it went - right up to the point where the explosive charge was detonated. Explosives are not something Middle-Earth has EVER seen before. The Wizards know a little about it - Gandalf, after all, was a dab hand at making all kinds of cheerful fireworks - but Saruman is the first to use such a thing in warfare. The breach in the wall was filled with Uruk-Hai faster than it could be plugged. This is Saruman using his technological advantage to the full. Once that wall goes down, it's all a matter of numbers - and the Uruk-Hai certainly have that on their side.

The scene with Aragorn having somethng of a 'Captain Kirk' death... it accomplishes quite a few things:

1 - A very defininte sense that Aragorn does indeed have a powerful destiny; one that he's not going to be able to squirm out of by dying.
2 - A neat tie-in back to Arwen at Rivendell and the 'conversation' between Elrond and Galadriel - not invented by Jackson, but taken from the Book of Lost Tales, vol. 2.
3 - It is firmly established that something has developed between Eowyn and Aragorn; at least, from Eowyn's side of the fence.
4 - It allows Aragorn to be the one to warn Helm's Deep of the approaching army - because otherwise they're not going to know it's coming!

I have a funny feeling the Elves were wiped out at Helm's Deep so Jackson doesnt have to worry about them in the last film. Callous, but understandable.

I certainly agree the time could well have been spent a teeny bit better - there's lots cut out of TTT - but the scene wasn't totally pointless.

As a side note - Brego, the horse that picks Aragorn up and takes him to Helm's Deep - is in fact the horse of Theodred, Theoden's dead son. Aragorn lets the horse go from the stables in a deleted scene.

Tancred

[Angelouss]

As a lotr neophyte(at best) I throughly enjoyed two towers, after being satisfied but not loving the first one. I haven't read anything but i have a friend who loves the movies so, I saw the first one recently and we went and saw two towers.

Gilmi didn't seem ineffectual to me, just ill suited for the tasks in the movie. The worg falling on him was just a string of bad luck.(one falls on him he's about to get up another falls) and at helms deep he can't do anything but wait until the orcs are over the wall. He was used for comic relief but used very well in that situtation(on Conan O'brien they showed the scene with the rohan riders and when the leader is making fun of gimli, and legolas draws the bow, they dubbed over legolas saying "they prefer to be called little people!"

Aragon and the cliff seemed to me to show the connection between the fellowship. It seemed to paralell Gandofs own brush with death except he focused on the past and Gandalf focused on the future.

[Hayashi]

Originally posted by Angelouss: It seemed to paralell Gandofs own brush with death except he focused on the past and Gandalf focused on the future.

But I thought (in the book) Gandalf did die, only to be reborn as Gandalf the White (as opposed to Grey). IIRC that came out in the movie too, in the scene where Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli meet who they thought was Saruman.

[Angelouss]

I thought he died and came back in the movie, brush w/ death just sounded better. I think my point still stands.

[esquire]

Ahh...But I think he did actually die in the movie, as he does mention something about coming back to finish one last task before he has to leave again - so this kind of implies that he is not the same human gandalf...but was he human in the first place? He also mentioned that he had the experience of 300 human lives...hmmmm

I am really pumped up about the extended version... think about it, there is a possibility of 30 min of extra footage, what do you think they will add in?

[Sir Exxon]

Originally posted by esquire: Ahh...But I think he did actually die in the movie, as he does mention something about coming back to finish one last task before he has to leave again - so this kind of implies that he is not the same human gandalf...but was he human in the first place? He also mentioned that he had the experience of 300 human lives...hmmmm I am really pumped up about the extended version... think about it, there is a possibility of 30 min of extra footage, what do you think they will add in?

<font color="gold">Tolkien-lesson of the day (contains Silmarillion-spoilers):

Gandalf is not a Human. Neither is he an Elf or Half-Elf.
At the beginning of the Third Age, when Sauron appeared again, the Valar sent five istari, or wizards, to help the people destroy Sauron once and for all. It is uncertain what these istari were, most likely they were lesser Maiar, spirits who were the Valars helpers and servants.
These five istari were: Two Unnamed, who wore blue robes, Radagast the Brown, Saruman the White, and Gandalf the Grey.
The colours of their robes represented their rank in the Order. The two Unnamed were the weakest, Radagast came after them, Gandalf was the second strongest, and Saruman were the strongest of them.
However, when they first entered Middle-Earth, Gandalf came last, and looked more wise and heavied by age than the others. Therefore, Círdan the Shipbuilder recognized him as the strongest of them.
The two Unnamed first went with Saruman to the east, and have never been seen again. When Saruman returned, he simply said that the two others had decided to stay there. Radagast first went to the South, and have never had any specific place to stay. Gandalf travelled around in the north, and became a friend and helper to many kingdoms, especially Gondor and Rohan. Saruman first went to the east, before he returned to the north, where he have stayed since.

You can all read much more about it in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-Earth, this is simply a quick summary from the top of my head. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

[ 01-12-2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Sir Exxon ]

[Tancred]

The Istari; maiar, definitely - the same kind of 'stock' as Sauron himself. The Istari are weakened by two limitations on their powers... the first, that they are 'clothed' in mortal bodies, and that they are prohibited from using their powers to fight Sauron directly.

It was generally held among the Wise that Saruman was without a doubt in possession of the sharpest mind and the most power among the Istari, but that Gandalf was the wiser of the two. Galadriel's original plea that Gandalf be head of the Order was in th end decided against by the other mebers of the White Council.

Th two Wizards who go unnamed in the tales are Alatar the Blue and Pellandro the Light Blue, who travel to the East in an attempt to break Sauron's hold over the eastern human realms. No-one knows what became of them.

[esquire]

I bow down to your Tolkienesque Knowledge

[Gammit]

Originally posted by Sir Exxon: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by esquire: Ahh...But I think he did actually die in the movie, as he does mention something about coming back to finish one last task before he has to leave again - so this kind of implies that he is not the same human gandalf...but was he human in the first place? He also mentioned that he had the experience of 300 human lives...hmmmm I am really pumped up about the extended version... think about it, there is a possibility of 30 min of extra footage, what do you think they will add in?

<font color="gold">Tolkien-lesson of the day (contains Silmarillion-spoilers):

Gandalf is not a Human. Neither is he an Elf or Half-Elf.
At the beginning of the Third Age, when Sauron appeared again, the Valar sent five istari, or wizards, to help the people destroy Sauron once and for all. It is uncertain what these istari were, most likely they were lesser Maiar, spirits who were the Valars helpers and servants.
These five istari were: Two Unnamed, who wore blue robes, Radagast the Brown, Saruman the White, and Gandalf the Grey.
The colours of their robes represented their rank in the Order. The two Unnamed were the weakest, Radagast came after them, Gandalf was the second strongest, and Saruman were the strongest of them.
However, when they first entered Middle-Earth, Gandalf came last, and looked more wise and heavied by age than the others. Therefore, Círdan the Shipbuilder recognized him as the strongest of them.
The two Unnamed first went with Saruman to the east, and have never been seen again. When Saruman returned, he simply said that the two others had decided to stay there. Radagast first went to the South, and have never had any specific place to stay. Gandalf travelled around in the north, and became a friend and helper to many kingdoms, especially Gondor and Rohan. Saruman first went to the east, before he returned to the north, where he have stayed since.

You can all read much more about it in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-Earth, this is simply a quick summary from the top of my head. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font></font>[/QUOTE]The two unnamed wizards were Alatar the Blue, and Pallando the Blue. My computer's name is Alatar (and it's blue!) It was believed that they formed the first magic cults (teaching humans about "magic").

[Sir Exxon]

<font color="gold">Ah, so that was indeed their names. Come to think of it, I do think that I've read it in the Silmarillion. Now I'll need to memorize two new Tolkien-names... Hard! [img]tongue.gif[/img] </font>