Which is more powerful?

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Gangrell: At what point that early in the game will you first off actually get a ninth level spell and secondly when will it be a matter of life and death taking a gamble on a spell that powerful in the beginning?

Well, presumably we're comparing these characters at level 40 so access to spells isn't a problem. There's no denying that using level 1 spell slots to cast Wish or ADHW is nothing to be sniffed at. And ICS is pretty good - 25 + 40 gives you an automatic roll of 66 on the table which almost puts you in the clear with mainly beneficial effects (like double damage )

[Assassin]

Actually, I just remembered something: EXP cap on or off? On, Sorcerer is better (IMO), and without, C/M is better.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

If we're talking maxed-out levels, we should keep in mind that a sorcerer might never need to rest for any reason ever again. A C/M might not get that option, but the sorcerer can cast Wish so many times that it's simply bound to happen.

This also puts the sorcerer above the Wild Mage, in my opinion. The Wild Mage *might* be able to cast a level 9 spell as a level 1 spell, sure. How many level 9 spells is that altogether in the end? Ten? Eleven? This is adding in wild surges and unfortunate effects... I'm with Gangrell; I wouldn't risk using a NRD during an important battle... If you were fighting another player, or playing a no-reload game, I doubt anyone would chance it.

[Assassin]

=/ In the game, being able to Wish/rest option is, IMO, very overrated. Sure, it's fun to say to everyone "Look, Bob, I finished ToB in 2 days, game time!", but it's not really a good indicator of power. I mean, I look at it from this point of view: Most battles will be finished with a CC: 3x ADHW and a Spell Trigger: 3 x Lower Resistance. Or a Time Stop deluge of spells. You probably won't ever need to use that option in a battle (and to be honest, that's a whole round wasted if you don't get that one option). And out of battle, just rest. Why not? Is there something preventing you from resting?

[K2Grey]

A Sorcerer need not wait 20 rounds to kill a lich. All that is necessary is to cast 2x Time Stop and hit the lich with Staff of the Magi to dispel his stuff during the 2nd Time Stop. Then cast Energy Blades and throw them at the lich. After the Time Stop ends the Energy Blades will all connect and kill the lich, even if it casts Protection from Magical Weapons immediately.

[shamrock_uk]

Welcome to the forums K2Grey [img]smile.gif[/img]

There are a couple of fights in ToB where Wish can be the difference between life or death though Assassin...

Not to mention it would be pretty handy for Improved Irenicus in SoA

[K2Grey]

Thanks shamrock. Actually I've been on these forums for a long time but I never bothered to register and when I did register I found out my password was undecipherable and was too lazy to change it [img]smile.gif[/img]

Wish is real useful during Imp Irenicus (although I actually used a more lengthly technique involving Proj Image, Spelltrap, and Energy Drain / Imprisonment scrolls).

A wild mage might be able to use NRD safely if he stacked 3 Improved Chaos Shields and is lv40?

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Gangrell: At what point that early in the game will you first off actually get a ninth level spell and secondly when will it be a matter of life and death taking a gamble on a spell that powerful in the beginning? Alright, Chaos Shield works, but not fullproof enough. Improved Chaos Shield is what, a 7th level spell? So you won't actually have the cards stacked in your favor until maybe the mid of the game. The Wild Mage is a spoof class, it's meant to have fun with, not to be taken seriously. If you take it as a serious class in a heated battle, you will die or be harmed more than helped, I know, even with ICS, I've had my characters petrified before, not a good thing to have happen. ~~

Okay, okay. I have decided to jump into this thread to start making clarifications.

Number one, the Wild Mage will never experience a Wild Surge again once he gets a Spell Sequencer. This is because Chaos Shield stacks when you use a sequencer to cast them. 3 Chaos Shield + High enough caster level equals guaranteed spells. Refer to the following website for more details.

http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Main.htm

Originally posted by Aragorn1: Are you mad? Kensai/mage is the best tank, dualling celestial fury and dakon zerth's blade its unstoppable. I would hack the c/m to bits. Especially when it removes you buffs. Although this could be recipricated imho a kensai would beat a cleric devoid of buffs.

You are talking about a Kensai->Mage trying to debuff a Cleric/Mage.

Trust me on this. Not an easy proposition.

Remember, a Cleric/Mage has buffs from both the Arcane side, and the Cleric side.

In terms of melee power, the Kensai->Mage has the Cleric/Mage beat, but in terms of raw power, the Kensai->Mage is a bug in comparison.

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: If we're talking maxed-out levels, we should keep in mind that a sorcerer might never need to rest for any reason ever again. A C/M might not get that option, but the sorcerer can cast Wish so many times that it's simply bound to happen. This also puts the sorcerer above the Wild Mage, in my opinion. The Wild Mage *might* be able to cast a level 9 spell as a level 1 spell, sure. How many level 9 spells is that altogether in the end? Ten? Eleven? This is adding in wild surges and unfortunate effects... I'm with Gangrell; I wouldn't risk using a NRD during an important battle... If you were fighting another player, or playing a no-reload game, I doubt anyone would chance it.

Again, Wild Surges are not a problem for Wild Mages. The Wild Mage does not need to rest ever either. Refer to the BG2 Spell Reference website for more details.

http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Main.htm

It's Infinite Spells strategy however, is inferior to the Sorcerer's. If you desire more details about this, let me know.

Originally posted by Assassin: =/ In the game, being able to Wish/rest option is, IMO, very overrated. Sure, it's fun to say to everyone "Look, Bob, I finished ToB in 2 days, game time!", but it's not really a good indicator of power. I mean, I look at it from this point of view: Most battles will be finished with a CC: 3x ADHW and a Spell Trigger: 3 x Lower Resistance. Or a Time Stop deluge of spells. You probably won't ever need to use that option in a battle (and to be honest, that's a whole round wasted if you don't get that one option). And out of battle, just rest. Why not? Is there something preventing you from resting?

The whole concept of the Wish/Rest option is the Infinite Spells part of it. Being able to complete the game in days is merely a side benefit. Where it shines is in the epic battles where endurance on the part of the caster is important. Project Image leaves the caster vulnerable( making it necessary in some cases to have the clone kill itself before the Time Stop ends), and will rapidly deplete your Level 7 spells if not replenished during the battle.

No sane solo Sorcerer worth his/her salt will only cast one Wish during an epic battle. The whole point of PRATI is to spam spells, and Wish is no exception. You are supposed to spam ALL your Wishes using one clone, and then continue. You WILL get the rest option. The chances of you NOT getting the rest option is akin to a full health, decently equipped, Level 20 Minsc being defeated by a barefisted Level 1 Kobold.

[ 03-26-2005, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

I had typed out a response dealing with the whole epic battle/infinite spell thing... And of course I got a wonderful IW timeout deeley and was too lazy to retype it all.

I was, however, unaware of the stacking Chaos Shields.

[Aragorn1]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: quote: Originally posted by Aragorn1: Are you mad? Kensai/mage is the best tank, dualling celestial fury and dakon zerth's blade its unstoppable. I would hack the c/m to bits. Especially when it removes you buffs. Although this could be recipricated imho a kensai would beat a cleric devoid of buffs.

You are talking about a Kensai->Mage trying to debuff a Cleric/Mage.

Trust me on this. Not an easy proposition.

Remember, a Cleric/Mage has buffs from both the Arcane side, and the Cleric side.

In terms of melee power, the Kensai->Mage has the Cleric/Mage beat, but in terms of raw power, the Kensai->Mage is a bug in comparison.

[/QUOTE]I take your point, it has been a while since i played bg2. Howevr the roles of the two types of character are so different that they are difficult to compare.