Design a Nazgul

[Cerek]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: quote: Originally posted by Cerek: Even Gandalf would be powerless to harm the Witch King, which is saying a LOT since he was able to kill a Balrog.

I must disagree. Gandalf had his doubts about being able/allowed to kill the Witch-king, what with the prophecy and all, but he showed no hesitation about facing him down. His exact words were (grabbing book) "It might be so [referring to whether he was overmatched], but our trial of strength is not yet come." It's also worth noting that Gandalf the Grey took on four Nazgul at once in the fight on Weathertop, and emerged unscathed, and Gandalf the White twice fended off five winged Nazgul at once on the Pelennor.[/QUOTE]OK, I mispoke. I should have maintained the assertion that Gandalf cannot kill the Witch King, but he probably could do him a great deal of harm.

As for Gandalf facing the other Nazgul, I think it is quite clear that the Witch King is far above the others in power. The prophecy of "cannot be killed by man" doesn't apply to the other 8 (to the best of my knowledge), only to the Witch King of Angmar. The power of ALL the Nazgul were definitely increased on the Pelonnor Fields - so it is reasonable to assume that Sauron was directly augmenting their power and that the Witch King's power was augmented even greater than that of the other 8.

As for the issue of seeing Invisible creatures or adventurers. I still feel that the ability to "see" invisible creatures applies ONLY to the RingBearer, because it is the Ring that draws their attention to the Wearer. I would agree that their sense of smell (which they did use quite often) would allow them to Detect Invisible at will, but even if they "detected" a character with Improved Invisibility - I would think the Nazgul would still be at a -2 penalty to hit since they can't actually "see" their quarry.

[dplax]

The Nazgul do not see at all (in the real world. Their sight of the wraith world is excellent). IIRC it is stated in LotR that they use their steeds (either horses or fell beasts) for sight. The nazgul are drawn to the power of the ring, and have an excellent sense of smell and hearing.

[ 02-06-2005, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: dplax ]

[Riftmaker]

Okay, some serious issues to resolve here.

Merry is a hobbit, not a human. He also stabbed the Witch King with a dagger of Westernesse (a.k.a. Numenor). That little tidbit was left out of the movie. The only reason the dagger actually hurt him is because it was from Westernesse.

The Witch King is the only one that is immune to human men. The others can be killed by whomever / whatever, if they get close enough.

They have Astral Vision. Plain and simple.

IMHO, a powerful Maia (which is what Istari are) is better than a corrupt human soul, even with powers augmented by a corrupt Maia. Gandalf even has one of the elven rings, staff, and even an elven sword.

I think Gandalf could've wasted the Witch King, given the chance. However, the Witch King had better things to do, like kill Theoden.

[Iron Greasel]

I think I read something about the Nazgul being able to see stuff other people didn't see. I think it was in Silmarillion. Of course, I could be wrong.

Originally posted by ElfBane: quote: Originally posted by SPeeDy51: And, last but not least, as they are in their "Nazgul" form they need the ability to fly. Now, how do we simulate that in NWN?

You are probably more of a Ring scholar than I am, but I don't recall the Nazgul having an innate flying ability. As a matter of fact, it seems they were pretty slow when deprived of their various mounts(horses and 'fell beasts'). [/QUOTE]I think Speedy's referring to those big black birds or whatever they were the Nazgul flew with.

[TheGodThatFailed]

Greasel - You mean the fell beasts.

Six - You said the Nazgul are undead, i didn't think they were. I may be wrong, but it says "They are neither living nor dead."
Although i may have misunderstood, and that says they are undead. It may just have been me being dim again

[dplax]

Originally posted by Iron Greasel: I think I read something about the Nazgul being able to see stuff other people didn't see. I think it was in Silmarillion. Of course, I could be wrong.

The Nazgul aren't mentioned at all in the Quenta Silmarillion.

They are mentioned in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, but not much detail is given about them there. It is said that 3 of them were great Numenoreans, that their leader was the Witch King of Angmar, who made war upon the north of the world for long years. It is also said that they captured Minas Ithil and converted it to Minas Morgul.

[Riftmaker]

All 9 of them are / were Numenoreans. They were given rings of power by Sauron that corrupted their spirits, binding them to him eternally.

Yeah, they did take Minas Ithil and turn it into Minas Morgul.

Six is right, they aren't living or dead, but something in between.

[Aragorn1]

Originally posted by Riftmaker: Okay, some serious issues to resolve here. The Witch King is the only one that is immune to human men. The others can be killed by whomever / whatever, if they get close enough.

As i said, The king of the Ulairi is not immune to human men, the cannot be killed by human man is a prophecy, not a statement of inaate abilities, he can only not be killed by human males becuase he is killed by a human female. As this nazgul would be out of the context of the story, then there should be no immunity.

[ 02-07-2005, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Aragorn1 ]

[Aragorn1]

Originally posted by dplax: quote: Originally posted by Iron Greasel: I think I read something about the Nazgul being able to see stuff other people didn't see. I think it was in Silmarillion. Of course, I could be wrong.

The Nazgul aren't mentioned at all in the Quenta Silmarillion.

They are mentioned in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, but not much detail is given about them there. It is said that 3 of them were great Numenoreans, that their leader was the Witch King of Angmar, who made war upon the north of the world for long years. It is also said that they captured Minas Ithil and converted it to Minas Morgul. [/QUOTE]I thought all that is said is that they were men who had become mighty, according to the LOTR ap. B they first appeared as wraiths at about 2251 second age, at the time of the beginings of division in numenor, i.e. not long enough for there to be a corrupting unfluence where is the reference to some of them being numenorean?

[dplax]

That reference is actually in Akallabeth. Page 330 of the 1979 Ballantine Books Edition of The Silmarillion (it is the only mention in Akallabeth about the Nazgul, all the other mentions are either in LotR or of the Rings of Power and the Third Age):

"Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those, whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Numenorean race."

[ 02-07-2005, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: dplax ]