Mod idea - Spoliers -

[Magness]

The problem with embedding a "Harper" path to Spellhold into the Jahiera plot is that it takes a long while for Jahiera's Harper plot to play thru. There's really no way to just force the issue and leave for Spellhold ASAP as there is with the Shadow Thieves and (I assume) the vampires.


It would be nice to have a Harper path that was more similar to the other two paths, such that you could talk to them and, after jumping thru a few hoops, they'd help you get to spellhold. I don't see any need for the Harpers to betray you. Perhaps they just set up a boatride with Saemon and you let the betrayal continue as normal.

A MAJOR problem with a Harper path would be how to incorporate it with the Jahiera harper plotline. Heck, I think that it's arguable that whether you have Jahiera with you or not, the Harpers don't think too well of the PC. They may not really be willing to help you at all. After all, you are a Bhaalspawn.

OTOH... Hmmm... (free thinking here...)

Perhaps the "bad" Harpers would be very willing to "help" you. Perhaps they would be very willing to help you get to Spellhold, because they've secretly made a deal with Irenicus and aren't all that nice at all.

Having said this, this idea does seem to be a bit in conflict with the Jahiera Harper plot. After all, would you willingly trust "Harpers" who just tried to imprison you?

If not for the Jahiera Harper plot, I could see these "bad" Harpers doing this sort of betrayal.


It would be nice to have a truly "good" path for getting to Spellhold. I just played a NG Swashbuckler thru SoA and ToB. So going the path of the Shadow Thieves was just fine for my PC. But it would be nice to have a Good path for a more goody-two-shoes sort of PC.


I agree that it might be a bit of a conflict for the Order of the Radiant Heart to fill this role. Perhaps, the Clerics of Lathander could help out here?

[Riftmaker]

Question, how would the Cowled wizards know something was wrong? Jonny is powerful enough to take it over, and nobody else would have a clue. I doubt anyone outside of Spellhold would even know something changed. The residents of Brynnlaw certainly didn't.

Simple answer to a simple problem.

Attach the harper path to the current harper quest somehow. After you do the whole assassin thing, they could offer you a way to Spellhold if you do some things for them. The fee would be the same of course, 15,000 gp.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Magness: Perhaps the "bad" Harpers would be very willing to "help" you. Perhaps they would be very willing to help you get to Spellhold, because they've secretly made a deal with Irenicus and aren't all that nice at all.

I'm not sure how many Forgotten Realms novels you've read, but from what I recall, the Harpers don't allow evil characters to join their ranks under any circumstances.

It is true that they have their own agenda that they pursue and they aren't shy about "using" adventurers to help achieve these goals. Because of this secretive nature, they are often viewed with a great deal of mistrust by commoners and even some adventurers (since the Harper asking for help rarely gives full details - they seem to especially "forget" to mention some of the more dire dangers that may be involved in the adventure). But they still work for the cause of "Good" more often than not. While it isn't unheard of, it most definitely is the exception to have "bad" Harpers.

Anyway, it is made very clear that the Harper "leader" in BG2 is considered a "rogue" by the rest of the group after his attempt to "dispose" of the PC.

Also, the Harpers wouldn't be likely to make a "deal" with someone like Irenicus (or anybody else for that matter). They will certainly "use" people for thier own purposes, but it would be rare for them to actually make a formal agreement or arrangement with someone like Irenicus.

Also, one other problem mentioned is the time necessary for Jaheira's plot to play out. Many players like to get to Spellhold as quickly as possible. They do just enough quests to get the $15,000gp needed for the trip and leave ALL the other quests (including most stronghold quests) until AFTER they return from rescueing their sister.

However, this could still work with the current "rogue" leader of the Harpers. He might see this as a chance to get rid of the Bhaalspawn. Once you return safely from Spellhold (MUCH to his disappointment), the rest of the Harper plot could continue as normal.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Magness: It would be nice to have a truly "good" path for getting to Spellhold. I just played a NG Swashbuckler thru SoA and ToB. So going the path of the Shadow Thieves was just fine for my PC. But it would be nice to have a Good path for a more goody-two-shoes sort of PC. I agree that it might be a bit of a conflict for the Order of the Radiant Heart to fill this role. Perhaps, the Clerics of Lathander could help out here?

I agree that there should be a truly "good" path for the PC to choose. I agree that it presents a bit of a conflict for the Order of the Radiant Heart - after all, the Cowled Wizards are the "lawful" authorities when it comes to regulating magic - but it is also easily apparant that the Cowled Wizards are corrupt. The "fee" for the "magic license" is nothing but a flat-out bribe and the C.W.'s do very little to disguise that fact. So that is one way the Order could agree to help.

The suggestion about involving the clerics of Lathandar is also good, though you would need to come up with an explanation of how it would benefit the church. The Order would benefit because the PC is either a future member of their ranks (paladin or kit) OR they are attempting to fight the corrupt Cowled Wizards. The second reasoning is less solid, but is at least feasible.

Of course, the clerics could realize just HOW corrupt the Wizards are and also realize that Imoen was wrongfully imprisoned. It's also possible they would be concerned about their divination spells being unable to penetrate the defenses around Spellhold. Since it is concievable that even their own brethren could end up being sent there, it is reasonable to assume they would want to be able to "monitor" the events at Spellhold to see just how the prisoners are treated there.

I like the idea of using the clerics for something OTHER than being sent to kill beholders and have a statue built. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Link]

Originally posted by Riftmaker: Question, how would the Cowled wizards know something was wrong? Jonny is powerful enough to take it over, and nobody else would have a clue. I doubt anyone outside of Spellhold would even know something changed. The residents of Brynnlaw certainly didn't. Simple answer to a simple problem.

Well, I always imagined the Cowled Wizards to have a relative simple method of getting to Spellhold. After all, following the "They are deviants, let them rot in Spellhold"-scene Imoen, Irenicus and some of the Cowled Wizards Dimension Door away to an unknown location. While this could very well be some location nearby, it could also be an instant teleportation to Spellhold. Of course this is just speculation. I don't know if there's a distantial limit to the Dimension Door spell, and I don't know if the Cowled Wizards face the same entry problems the PC has (Spellhold only accesible through Desharik and/or the wardstone carried by Perth the Adept).

Another option could be that one of the Cowled Wizards got away. Irenicus may have taken over, but we don't know if he slaughtered every last one of the Cowled Wizards (CW). For all we know, the two CW's that were killed (I thought they were murdered anyway) in the "I cannot be caged, I cannot be controlled. Know that as you die, ever pathetic, ever fools"-scene were the only ones to die by the hands of our favorite evil archmage.
If the Cowled Wizards were informed Spellhold was lost to them, they wouldn't be itchy to reconquer the place themselves. We know for a fact that they are afraid of Irenicus' powers ("This mage's power's immense!" "He took down four of us before we could contain him!"), so it would be pretty plausible to assume they are eager to throw in someone else in order to save their own hides.

Your thoughts?

[ 12-09-2004, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Link ]

[Magness]

Originally posted by Cerek: quote: Originally posted by Magness: Perhaps the "bad" Harpers would be very willing to "help" you. Perhaps they would be very willing to help you get to Spellhold, because they've secretly made a deal with Irenicus and aren't all that nice at all.

I'm not sure how many Forgotten Realms novels you've read, but from what I recall, the Harpers don't allow evil characters to join their ranks under any circumstances.

It is true that they have their own agenda that they pursue and they aren't shy about "using" adventurers to help achieve these goals. Because of this secretive nature, they are often viewed with a great deal of mistrust by commoners and even some adventurers (since the Harper asking for help rarely gives full details - they seem to especially "forget" to mention some of the more dire dangers that may be involved in the adventure). But they still work for the cause of "Good" more often than not. While it isn't unheard of, it most definitely is the exception to have "bad" Harpers.

Anyway, it is made very clear that the Harper "leader" in BG2 is considered a "rogue" by the rest of the group after his attempt to "dispose" of the PC.

Also, the Harpers wouldn't be likely to make a "deal" with someone like Irenicus (or anybody else for that matter). They will certainly "use" people for thier own purposes, but it would be rare for them to actually make a formal agreement or arrangement with someone like Irenicus.

Also, one other problem mentioned is the time necessary for Jaheira's plot to play out. Many players like to get to Spellhold as quickly as possible. They do just enough quests to get the $15,000gp needed for the trip and leave ALL the other quests (including most stronghold quests) until AFTER they return from rescueing their sister.

However, this could still work with the current "rogue" leader of the Harpers. He might see this as a chance to get rid of the Bhaalspawn. Once you return safely from Spellhold (MUCH to his disappointment), the rest of the Harper plot could continue as normal. [/QUOTE]Cerek, when I discussed using the "bad" harpers, I *was* talking about the rogue Harpers in the Jahiera plot. I understand that the true harpers would probably not deal with Irenicus, etc. That's why I was only talking about the rogue harper. If this guy was willing to try to Imprison the PC, I could also see him trying to set up the PC by trying to get him/her sent to Spellhold.


I agree that some players like to go to Spellhold ASAP. That's why any "good" option would need to have a way to fulfill any requirements of the "good" organization that's willing to help.


BTW, one downside of having the rogue harpers is that they wouldn't be a truly Good option. Just another evil (or neutral at best) option.

[Magness]

Originally posted by Cerek: quote: Originally posted by Magness: It would be nice to have a truly "good" path for getting to Spellhold. I just played a NG Swashbuckler thru SoA and ToB. So going the path of the Shadow Thieves was just fine for my PC. But it would be nice to have a Good path for a more goody-two-shoes sort of PC. I agree that it might be a bit of a conflict for the Order of the Radiant Heart to fill this role. Perhaps, the Clerics of Lathander could help out here?

I agree that there should be a truly "good" path for the PC to choose. I agree that it presents a bit of a conflict for the Order of the Radiant Heart - after all, the Cowled Wizards are the "lawful" authorities when it comes to regulating magic - but it is also easily apparant that the Cowled Wizards are corrupt. The "fee" for the "magic license" is nothing but a flat-out bribe and the C.W.'s do very little to disguise that fact. So that is one way the Order could agree to help.

The suggestion about involving the clerics of Lathandar is also good, though you would need to come up with an explanation of how it would benefit the church. The Order would benefit because the PC is either a future member of their ranks (paladin or kit) OR they are attempting to fight the corrupt Cowled Wizards. The second reasoning is less solid, but is at least feasible.

Of course, the clerics could realize just HOW corrupt the Wizards are and also realize that Imoen was wrongfully imprisoned. It's also possible they would be concerned about their divination spells being unable to penetrate the defenses around Spellhold. Since it is concievable that even their own brethren could end up being sent there, it is reasonable to assume they would want to be able to "monitor" the events at Spellhold to see just how the prisoners are treated there.

I like the idea of using the clerics for something OTHER than being sent to kill beholders and have a statue built. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]I suppose that the Lathanderites could actually be fully aware of the corruptness of the Cowled Wizards, but have had no way to confront them or no legit reason. Perhaps the kidnapping of Imeon would provide them with a reason.

The Clerics might see the PC and his party as a good means of getting a group over to Brynnlaw and to scope out Spellhold. The question might be how do they actually *get* to Brynnlaw. I suppose the simplest way would be for the clerics to simply make a deal with Saemon Havarian and let the plot procede from there. The clerics wouldn't be any more responsible for betraying the PC than Aran Linvail.

Actually, the next questions to be asked would be how and where would the Clerics come into contact with the PC. And then, what tasks would the PC need to do for the Clerics before they set up the little boat ride to Brynnlaw? (And what would the justification for those tasks be?)

[Magness]

Originally posted by Link: quote: Originally posted by Riftmaker: Question, how would the Cowled wizards know something was wrong? Jonny is powerful enough to take it over, and nobody else would have a clue. I doubt anyone outside of Spellhold would even know something changed. The residents of Brynnlaw certainly didn't. Simple answer to a simple problem.

Well, I always imagined the Cowled Wizards to have a relative simple method of getting to Spellhold. After all, following the "They are deviants, let them rot in Spellhold"-scene Imoen, Irenicus and some of the Cowled Wizards Dimension Door away to an unknown location. While this could very well be some location nearby, it could also be an instant teleportation to Spellhold. Of course this is just speculation. I don't know if there's a distantial limit to the Dimension Door spell, and I don't know if the Cowled Wizards face the same entry problems the PC has (Spellhold only accesible through Desharik and/or the wardstone carried by Perth the Adept).

Another option could be that one of the Cowled Wizards got away. Irenicus may have taken over, but we don't know if he slaughtered every last one of the Cowled Wizards (CW). For all we know, the two CW's that were killed (I thought they were murdered anyway) in the "I cannot be caged, I cannot be controlled. Know that as you die, ever pathetic, ever fools"-scene were the only ones to die by the hands of our favorite evil archmage.
If the Cowled Wizards were informed Spellhold was lost to them, they wouldn't be itchy to reconquer the place. We know for a fact that they are afraid of Irenicus' powers ("This mage's power's immense!" "He took down four of us before we could contain him!"), so it would be pretty plausible to assume they are hesitant to throw in someone else in order to save their own hides.

Your thoughts? [/QUOTE]Link, I can see this being a fairly legit justification for the Cowled Wizzies looking for help. However, there would be some potential conflicts. I think that you would absolutely have to buy the magic license or absolutely avoid killing any CW's. I cannot see the CW's being willing to help a party that kills CW's on the streets of Athkatla.

Also, I think that you might have to find a way to justify not killing Valygar. I suppose that you could get around killing the CW's in the Planar Sphere by saying that what happens in the Planar Sphere, stays in the Planar Sphere, if you know what I mean. But if you actually had Valygar in your party when you were trying to deal with these CW's, this might cause a serious problem. The CW's might refuse to help you. They might even attack you.

Also, where would the CW's HQ be? At "City Hall"? Perhaps, but not a good place if you wanted to allow for the CW's to get PO'd at you for having Valygar in the group and attack. Otherwise, City Hall would probably work, since the CW's seem to sort of run Athkatla.

The thing is, the CW's are hardly a Good option. They are, perhaps, more of a Lawful Nuetral option.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Magness: I'm not sure what the quests might be, but they could end up the same place the ST quests do, no? Raiding the compound is a very Lathander-esque thing to do. Take the dungeon by force... Throw open the doors, that the light of Lathander might burn the darkness within.

[Riftmaker]

Okay...the whole point is, we are looking for a GOOD alternative to the Shadow Thieves and Bodhi. We are not discussing random alternatives, we are looking for a GOOD aligned one.

Paladins: Would not help you. This would interfere with the law of Athkala. That's against what the Order stands for.

Cowled Wizards: Not a GOOD aligned alternative. These guys are Lawful Neutral at best. Definitely NOT good.

Rogue Harpers: Again, not a GOOD aligned alternative. Forget them completely.

Real Harpers: Definitely a GOOD aligned alternative. Because Harpers often don't act within the bounds of the law, they would make a perfect GOOD alternative. Hell, I can even see an appearance by Elm in there.

Lathanderites: They are mostly concerned with destroying evil / undead and promoting Lathander. I doubt they even know Jonny exists. Besides, they wouldn't interfere with the CW's policing of magic. They are LAWFUL after all.