Samurai kit--opinions wanted

[teardropmina]

six, I like the recruitable Monk NPC idea and whole Expanded Athkatla mod thing. However, I think staff will be a better weapon for a Chinese flavor Monk than Scimitar. Scimitar is *exotic* weapon in Chinese wu-xia world. Staff, however, is tradiational Chinese weapon. I think with a Chinese Monk, some Chinese style of staff item can be made as well.

[Butterfingers]

Perhaps being a master in all weapons is a poor choice of words.

Samurai are meant to be well schooled in all weapons, capable and confident fighters with any weapon at their disposal. If it's a broken table leg or even a torn shred of drapery, it's expected that a Samurai make the best use with what he has. How to translate this into the game? I don't know. A true Samurai class in SoA would be an epic undertaking.

How would a Samurai have enough points to put stars into Single and Two Handed Weapon style as well as all the weapons he would be expected to use? Perhaps a Samurai kit should have a Paladin or Ranger type restriction of only having 2 stars per weapon, but, gaining a kit bonus of gaining +2 to hit and +2 to damage. Or something along those lines. Maybe even +3 as I don't think that's unreasonable. Give them a star in SHWS and THWS for free. Or do it Swashbuckler like and give them a plus to hit and damage every few levels.

Or, shoot for the corny cheesy pop culture angle and turn them into Captian Cusinart. =D

[teardropmina]

Originally posted by Butterfingers: Perhaps being a master in all weapons is a poor choice of words. Samurai are meant to be well schooled in all weapons, capable and confident fighters with any weapon at their disposal. If it's a broken table leg or even a torn shred of drapery, it's expected that a Samurai make the best use with what he has. How to translate this into the game? I don't know. A true Samurai class in SoA would be an epic undertaking.

I feel that you kinda blend the characteristics of Chinese knight errant into Samurai? The *using anything at hand as weapon* is part of Chinese wu-xia fantasy. That's when a wu-shu practioner gets toward the master level, he/she can make weapon out of anything at hand; yet, most practioners would specialize in only one weapon (or a set of weapons, and of course fist/leg stance is also a choice of specialization). Samurai most specializes in Samurai weapons, Japanese Blade/Sword (katana) or Spear. They may use a broken table leg as a sword, but the art of blade can only displayed through using blades.

Ronins (samurai without masters) lead a life similar to Chinese wu-xia characters, but still, they mostly stick to Japanese blade as main weapon. Chinese weapons, however, have lots of variety.

[ 04-14-2004, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: teardropmina ]

[Jerr Conner]

Well if Cloud can carry that big Sword I'm betting a gnome can carry a Katana

Seriously, though, if I had a Halfling Samurai he'd be using the Wazikashi more than the Katana, unless he had the strength score to use a Katana effectively.

Generally speaking, I just hate race restrictions, that's just my opinion though.

[Butterfingers]

I am not blending anything.

I own lots of old weapons. I have armor and all sorts of period pieces from several different cultures and ages. I am most fixated with old Japanese stuff.

Japan, long ago, was a most interesting place. They had iron, in very limited supply. They were resource poor. Their martial arts, and, even their knights, the Samurai, were all part of using what they had. I own several amazing pieces of armor, made from wicker and bamboo. These are museum pieces. I even have swords, both metal and wood, and, in some ways, the wooden weapons are better then the metal versions. Why? Because it's all they had and they did extraordinary things with them.

To many people forge their samurai image from movies, like for example, The Seven Samurai. It's a great movie... It's a fun movie... But it's a movie.

The Samurai is not remembered for his swords, or his pole arms, or even their amazing armor. No, they are remembered for their fighting skill. Many Samurai fought with what amounts to bits of wicker and bamboo lashed together with rags, armed with sharp wooden poles and wooden swords. They fought with hand and foot, sword and spear, mind and soul. They fought with courage and conviction and a strong set of personal beliefs that kept them going on the battlefield in the face of impossible odds. Fighting each other, or, charging matchlock militia with nothing more then their courage and some battered weapons, they did it all with a sense of style and grace.

This is why translating this to a game is so hard. How do you capture this? I am not trying to capture some popular image or anime crap. Or some movie image or God forbid, some Tom Cruise inspired bit.

Take the popular modern image if you should desire, it is a lot more fun, a good deal more romantic, and probably has a lot more role play potential. Just please, do not accuse me or blending anything. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[teardropmina]

Originally posted by Butterfingers: Take the popular modern image if you should desire, it is a lot more fun, a good deal more romantic, and probably has a lot more role play potential. Just please, do not accuse me or blending anything. [img]smile.gif[/img]

sorry, I wasn't *accusing* you as I put a question mark there, making it a question. I have doubts and I just asked. My point of departure is fiction and fantasy (if you read my posts carefully you should know that I always refer to fantasy world). No offense intended, if I offended you in anyway. Sorry.

as for how false the movie image (aka Seven Samurai style) is...I won't say it's completely false. Most Japanese period dramas get their art design ideas from traditional Japanese arts. That is, they will trace how samurai were portrayed in Japanese painting/drawing. here is a quick find online description of Samurai, from http://www.us.emb-japan.go.jp/faq/history.htm

"Samurai were the military and ruling elite for most of Japan’s history. Beginning in the Heian Period (794-1192 AD), samurai assumed high positions within Japan’s social structure. Often the most learned and cultured of society, the samurai lost all status and privileges after the Meiji Restoration of 1868. Kendo, the Japanese art of fencing, comes from the ancient samurai sword fighting arts. Bushido, the ways of the warrior, is part of the extreme code of ethics and strict honor inherent in the samurai class. A samurai maintained the highest respect and piety to the lord whom he served. The honor and responsibility passed down from the samurai have always had a great impact on the Japanese people. A samurai’s weapon was the katana (sword)."

Not really sure about the detail of the history of Samurai; one thing we do know and know quite well, however, is *Kendo*, which now has become a corss between sport and fencing art in many countries other than Japan. If the above description has any truth in it, Samurai, at some point of the long Japanese history actually developed a specialized *art of sword/blade.* And more than likely, the sword [blade = the more exact translation] that Samurai relied on to develop kendo was katana (the longsword not the short sword).

There's a long history behind Samurai, and there are many *periods* that made Samurai's outlook and situation different from era to era. Your idea of the true Samurai and the movie image of Samurai don't necessary cancel each other out. Also, comparing the traditional Japanese drawing and the movie Harakiri (by Masaki Kobayashi) I don't see the movie exaggerate much the drawing image (unless of course Japanese traditional drawing isn't faithful to the historical fact either, then the movie of course will be unfaithful).

once again, the popular image of Samurai cannot be brought up if there's no root/historical reference for it to be based on.

[ 04-15-2004, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: teardropmina ]

[Imrahil]

Originally posted by Butterfingers: Perhaps being a master in all weapons is a poor choice of words. Samurai are meant to be well schooled in all weapons, capable and confident fighters with any weapon at their disposal. If it's a broken table leg or even a torn shred of drapery, it's expected that a Samurai make the best use with what he has. How to translate this into the game? I don't know. A true Samurai class in SoA would be an epic undertaking.

Is there some reason why a Samurai must necessarily be better with a broken chair leg than, say, a Dwarven Fighter who's an Axe specialist? Aren't all Fighters, Rangers, & Paladins "experts with any weapon" just by virtue of their low THAC0's & higher ApR's? They can train to become better with certain weapons, but pretty much all of them can pick up "any weapon at their disposal" & be more effective than your average Thief.

A Samurai kit would certainly need some special abilities/hindrances to make them unique, but it sounds like you could just play a Cavalier & role-play the rest (self-limit your spell selections to Remove Fear, DUHM, etc., self-limit your armor selections, take Katana & Scimitar (for Wakizashis) proficiencies, etc., etc.).

- Imrahil

[ 04-15-2004, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Imrahil ]

[bamflegend]

[ 04-15-2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: bamflegend ]

[SixOfSpades]

SAMURAI

CLASS: Ranger
RACE: Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc
ALIGNMENT: Any non-Chaotic

ADVANTAGES:

• Bonus +1 to THAC0 and damage every 5 levels using melee weapons
• Gets 2 free proficiency points in Katana, 1 in Wakizashi/Scimitar, 1 in Spear, and 1 in Halberd
• Able to attain Grandmastery (+++++) in all traditional Samurai melee weapons: Spear, Halberd, Staff, Katana, Wakizashi, Scimitar, and Dagger
• Special Abilities of Remove Fear (1x/day per 5 levels), Champion's Strength (1x/day per 5 levels), Haste (1x/day per 10 levels), Death Ward (1x/day per 10 levels), Righteous Magic (1x/day per 10 levels), and Iron Skins (1x/day per 15 levels). All Abilities are centered on the caster, and only Remove Fear can affect other creatures.

DISADVANTAGES:

• May place only one proficiency point in Short Bow
• May not place any proficiency points in any weapon not listed above (and they disdain to use Ninja-to)
• Does not get a normal Ranger's 2 free proficiency points in 2-Weapon Style
• May not wear any metal armor higher than Splint Mail, or use Shields
• May not cast spells
• Stealth increases at 1/2 the rate of a normal Ranger
• Does not choose a Racial Enemy

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Changes: I dinged their ranged potential, turning their 3-star advantage in Short Bows into a 1-star drawback. I made them more versatile weapon-selection-wise by taking away their free Dual-wielding and giving them 3 bonus stars pre-placed in the most popular Samurai weapons. Added the 6 Special Abilities and the equal & opposite reaction of removing their Ranger spells.

[Lord]

Still sounds pretty overpowered, Six.

Will they still receive the bonus penalty different in dual wielding that regular rangers get?

Seriuosly, I think the kit needs more disadvantages or just stronger disadvantages. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Maybe if you take away some of those special abilities.
I think it seems fair to gain a +1 bonus to thac0 every 5 levels, but +2 bonus to damage every 5 levels as well? Maybe somewhere between every 7-10 levels (make a choice somewhere there).
Why does the Samurai kit gain the ability iron skins? I don't see how it's in the least related to the Samurai. Is it just something you kept in mind incase someone is soloing a samurai?