Solafein Q:s

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by weimer: Eilistraee takes it away if any other party member ever uses it.

Ah, so here we have a knife with which to cut this block of cheese! All right, so even supposing you have already locked out any possible exploits to keep the weapon (e.g. Time Stop/Mind Flayer/devour Eilistraee), let's stick to just Solaufein. AoF + DoE + Hardiness = 85%, and if I knew the stats for the Yellow Dragon Scale I'd add them too. So, basically, all you can do is lower his impressive Magic Resistance so you can lower his impressive Saving Throws so you can hit him with a spell that won't be blocked by the Death Ward. Come on, here.

Your argument actually seems to suggest (correctly!) that it is already quite possible to get very high physical resistances in BG2. In light of that, I'm not sure why giving AoF to Solaufein in ToB is such a big deal.

You're absolutely right. Let's give every recruitable NPC 50% physical resistances, immunity to +2 weapons or lower, and the ability to fly. And make it so they can all see invisible units, are immune to Time Stop, and don't have to actually cast any spells--they have an AI that automatically ForceSpells everything for them, so they don't have to worry about getting disrupted or hit by a Wizard Slayer. And if all else fails, give them the Big Metal Unit for free, in Chapter 2.

[Dundee Slaytern]

If one feels that Magic Resistance and Protection from Magical Weapons negate the need for Chaotic Commands and Physical Damage Resistance, then why have them at all? After all, in your opinion, you feel that they are useless right? So why not remove these 'useless' enchantments?

By tagging on more and more enchantments, you are making the weapon more powerful, whether you believe it or not. Not all Charm/Confusion/Hold spells can be negated by Magic Resistance, and Magic Resistance can be lowered, but an equipped immunity cannot be dispelled. A permanent Chaotic Commands is a 100% guarantee that the user cannot be affected by any mental spells. This is vastly different to depending on Magic Resistance.

Magic Resistance can be countered, the sword's Chaotic Commands cannot be countered.

Same thing with the Armour of Faith. It is guaranteed. There is a difference between guaranteed, and unguaranteed alternatives. Sola can have 45% Physical Damage resistances if he had his sword and the Defender of Easthaven( 85% with Hardiness). This is comparable to the Barbarian or Fighter/Thief with alternative setups.

That is not so bad. A minor thing in fact if you ask me, but, it is not just physical damage resistance that the sword grants. It is +25% resistance to almost everything in the game. If you tweak it to just Physical Damage resistance, then perhaps it will be more balanced.

Draw Upon Holy Might is another case of overdoing it. You may start pointing to Crom Faeyr, but, and this is a big but, Crom Faeyr only boosts your STR. Draw Upon Holy Might boosts 3 statistics, STR, CON and DEX. Again, this effect is undispellable which is pretty swell since those who have the spell have to suffer the duration and the chance of it being dispelled.

Permanent Luck is pretty inconsequential.

Permanent Death Ward and Negative Plane Protection is another matter. Comparisons to other weapons like the Runehammer is unbalanced, because you see, Runehammer does not have the other goodies that this sword has.

This sword basically takes the best of several weapons/items and magically combines them into ONE weapon. This is the crux of the problem I believe. The weapon has too many enchantments, and it just outshines too much.

A player can make Sola into what I like to call a Brick. A character that is near-nigh impossible to hurt.

Losing some of the enchantments will make it less of a... game-breaker, but still make it a good weapon.

[ 03-11-2003, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by weimer: Quote: You know, I tried that. I tried that when he brought out the Rebalanced Shapeshifter,

And look! Now it's weaker, and has been for a while.[/QUOTE]I heard that you'd toned down the Greater Werebears, but nothing about the Shapeshifter itself. And, since I didn't feel like waltzing through the game escorted by my own Regenerating Iron Golem, I uninstalled it and have been free to cast the normal (and perfectly sufficient) Conjure Animals ever since.

Quote: and when he brought out Improved Kitthix

And look! After a long debate no one was able to bring forth any evidence beyond "I having a feeling that Imp Kitthix is strong" -- in all but one of my tests he died a horrible flaming death. Sure, he's great support. But he's not the second coming. The one person I remember who did some other battle testing came back with the conclusion that he was comparable to a Mordy (in the Oasis).[/QUOTE]When a Level 8 Fighter can use a summon that can easily destroy his entire party, something just smells funny. People keep suggesting "Make it wait until Chapter 6!" to you, but you never seem to listen....

Quote: I didn't complain when he made the Holy Buckler of Amaunator more powerful than I'd intended.

In a game where you can buy protection from undead scrolls, concerns about False Dawn didn't seem all that pressing to me. Compare Daystar's Sunray (which works on more than undead!).[/QUOTE]The extra False Dawn is indeed trivial, but I see no reason whatsoever for the (undocumented) +5% Magic Resistance. PfU scrolls are only for cheese, or for Solo Monks who want to take on Bodhi.

Quote: And none of it did a damn bit of good.

I wouldn't go that far.[/QUOTE]All right, I stand corrected on that point.

Quote: Attributes: While equipped, grants Negative Plane Protection, Chaotic Commands, (and immunity to Charm and Domination spells (which is part of Chaotic Commands, IIRC)).

These abilities are larely useless for the only possible user given his initial magic resistance. Would you use a +3 sword with NPP and some fire damage when Ages, Fury, Angurvadal, the Runehammer, Foebane, etc., are available?[/QUOTE]Since Level Drain and Psionics both ignore Magic Resistance, yes I would, in certain circumstances. And do you honestly mean to tell me you think this sword is on a level with things like Angurvadal? Even granted the one saving grace that only Solaufein can wield it, it's still even worse than things like the Ravager--which is yet another thing you're immune to while holding this nice shiny bit of metal.

[weimer]

stick to just Solaufein. AoF + DoE + Hardiness = 85%, and if I knew the stats for the Yellow Dragon Scale I'd add them too. So, basically, all you can do is lower his impressive Magic Resistance so you can lower his impressive Saving Throws so you can hit him with a spell that won't be blocked by the Death Ward.

OK, so if you've dedicated most of your game to making Solaufein hard to kill in melee, for the dozen rounds while Hardiness lasts you will succeed in giving him 85% damage resistance. I'd still rather carry a stack of 5 pro-mw scrolls.

Adamantium Golems have more resistance than that and they still fall to concerted attacks. Solaufein can as well -- the Eclipse fight and the Demogorgon guardians are excellent examples. A few enemies whirlwinding him (or just attacking him with high rates of fire) will suffice.

As for the magical attacks: some hypothetical PC I might posit with the Cloak of Cheese and the Belt of Inertial Barrier would be even more protected from damaging spells. Haer'Dalis in ToB starts with 15% physical resistances and can get (if memory serves) UAI. 15% + Jansen + DoE is non-trivial and doesn't rely on hardiness timing. If you look hard enough, the extant NPCs can already play these games.

I'm not going to argue that Solaufein is weak. Sure, he's strong. But so is everything else in ToB, notably including Player1! Player1 (or an NPC with that chainmail) can get immunity to all weapons for as long as it can cast pro-mw. I'd fear that more than Solaufein. Other examples abound. There are many cases where I'd rather have Keldorn's active dispel magic than Solaufein's passive magic resistance.

You're absolutely right. Let's give every recruitable NPC 50% physical resistances,

If you're not having fun with the mod, don't play with it.

You asked facetiously earlier why I bother with IE modding. You may want to see if you can come up with a realistic answer.

[weimer]

nothing about the Shapeshifter itself. And, since I didn't feel like

Fair enough. The fact remains, they are weaker than when you last tried. Probably not enough to make you happy, however.

When a Level 8 Fighter can use a summon that can easily destroy his entire party, something just smells funny. People keep suggesting "Make it wait until Chapter 6!" to you, but you never seem to listen....

A level 1 magic user can case Gate from a scroll in BG2. This "just smells funny" reason seems unconvincing to me.

but I see no reason whatsoever for the (undocumented) +5% Magic Resistance.

Thank you for pointing out that bug. I just fixed it locally.

Since Level Drain and Psionics both ignore Magic Resistance, yes I would, in certain circumstances.

Sure. In a mind flayer fight with no potions available I might use such a sword. In a vampire fight with no pro-mw and no other npp items available I might use such a sword.

And do you honestly mean to tell me you think this sword is on a level with things like Angurvadal?

I mean to tell you that it is on a level with Ages +5, Fury, Foebane +5, Ravager, Magi, Carso, etc.

even worse than things like the Ravager--which is yet another

I'm afraid that we (and most of the people I get feedback from) part company here. Ravager+6 + Whirlwind (or Imp Haste) is quite, quite strong.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Adamantium Golems do not have the advantage of Mirror Image, Stoneskins, high Attacks per Round, etc... that Sola will have. As I mentioned above, the sword enables Sola to become a Brick with little effort on his part. It is not inconceivable that a player can make a Simulacrum clone of Sola and use it for Operation Drow Shield where enemies focus most of their attacks on it while everybody else attacks from range.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Just to put a spin on this, what would you consider to be Sola's weakness?

[jcompton]

That low-quality pulp paper that gets all yellow after a few years. And folding down the corners of pages. Solaufein must save vs. being really, really appalled.

Although Solaufein might actually respect the dog-earing of pages, since it is a reader "convenience." [img]smile.gif[/img]

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by weimer: OK, so if you've dedicated most of your game to making Solaufein hard to kill in melee,

I would hardly call the time it takes to get Solaufein a few Hardinesses "most of my game," especially considering the rate at which Multiclasses gain HLA's.

for the dozen rounds while Hardiness lasts you will succeed in giving him 85% damage resistance. I'd still rather carry a stack of 5 pro-mw scrolls.

Are you trying to make 85% sound like it's less than worthwhile? And please tell me what magic store you're pulling all these PfMW scrolls from.

Adamantium Golems have more resistance than that and they still fall to concerted attacks. Solaufein can as well -- the Eclipse fight and the Demogorgon guardians are excellent examples. A few enemies whirlwinding him (or just attacking him with high rates of fire) will suffice.

Yeah--Adamantite Golems are stupid, and if you take them one at a time and spread the damage among your party you don't even need the FoA to take them down. But don't try to say that any Tank worth his salt must have at least the same Resistances as an Adamantite Golem.

As for the magical attacks: some hypothetical PC I might posit with the Cloak of Cheese and the Belt of Inertial Barrier would be even more protected from damaging spells.

3x Skull Trap, anyone? 3x Cone of Cold? Comet? Time Stop->Harm? All of which take less time in battle than trying to target things like Lower Resistance, Breach, or Pierce Shield on a Mirror Imaged, Imp.Invisible Solaufein (especially during that period when you've seen fit to turn him into a Lich as well).

I'm not going to argue that Solaufein is weak. Sure, he's strong. But so is everything else in ToB, notably including Player1! Player1 (or an NPC with that chainmail) can get immunity to all weapons for as long as it can cast pro-mw.

Just how much do you depend on that spell? And just how many of the recruitable NPCs do you feel should be equal in power to the prophecied Bhaalspawn, Destroyer of the Five?

There are many cases where I'd rather have Keldorn's active dispel magic than Solaufein's passive magic resistance.

And there are a whole bunch of cases where I'd rather have the Magic Resistance: Every Beholder fight in the entire game, for a start.

Quote: You're absolutely right. Let's give every recruitable NPC 50% physical resistances,

If you're not having fun with the mod, don't play with it.[/QUOTE]That plan's worked well for me so far. I was planning on downloading Sola to try him out, but hearing about this sword has definitely changed my tune. If you've tweaked the enemies to be expecting me to be carrying things like this, that'll change it even more.

You asked facetiously earlier why I bother with IE modding. You may want to see if you can come up with a realistic answer.

....because there isn't much interest in MODs for first-person shooters?

Note that my list of "Things to give every recruitable NPC" was not as flippant as it may have seemed. With the exception of flight, I think every single one of those powers has been graciously bestowed by thee on at least one of your creations. Some have their fair share of merit, others have less. (IMHO, of course.)

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by weimer: Quote: nothing about the Shapeshifter itself. And, since I didn't feel like

Fair enough. The fact remains, they are weaker than when you last tried. Probably not enough to make you happy, however.[/QUOTE]I'm not pleased by weakness, I'm pleased by realism and challenging, fun playability. Having a Tank who can just stand there and not do a damn thing while enemies pound on him all day, unable to get past his Regeneration, is neither challenging nor fun to me.

Quote: When a Level 8 Fighter can use a summon that can easily destroy his entire party, something just smells funny. People keep suggesting "Make it wait until Chapter 6!" to you, but you never seem to listen....

A level 1 magic user can case Gate from a scroll in BG2. This "just smells funny" reason seems unconvincing to me.[/QUOTE]I gave you a scenario that can actually happen, quite easily in fact, and I'll thank you to do the same for me. Show me a Level 1 Wizard in Suldenessellar and I'll show you a cheater.

Quote: but I see no reason whatsoever for the (undocumented) +5% Magic Resistance.

Thank you for pointing out that bug. I just fixed it locally.[/QUOTE]The HBoA has been up there for how long, and I'm the first to notice? Freaky.

Quote: And do you honestly mean to tell me you think this sword is on a level with things like Angurvadal?

I mean to tell you that it is on a level with Ages +5, Fury, Foebane +5, Ravager, Magi, Carso, etc.[/QUOTE]I see. New items must be judged with respect to the most powerful, potentially game-breaking weapons available. Simple, really.