BG dragons

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Heh, the empty templates are in place already, but for some reason, I lost interest in completing it.

Hmmm... Life, perhaps? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: Hmmm... Life, perhaps? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Most probably.

[Alson]

Thought so... [img]smile.gif[/img]

BTW, have you seen my Equalizer analysis? I know you don't like that sword, so i thought you may find it interesting.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: Thought so... [img]smile.gif[/img] BTW, have you seen my Equalizer analysis? I know you don't like that sword, so i thought you may find it interesting.

Read it already, and while it is interesting, I think it does not redeem the "stinkiness" of the weapon.

Spoilers
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~
~
~
3 Pieces, 6 Chapters, 7,500 Gold Pieces, 1 Elder Orb, 1 Beholder, AN ENTIRE MIND FLAYER CITY, and I get this?

Sorry, but it is just not worth the effort. :/ Especially when you consider the other weapons that you can use.

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Read it already, and while it is interesting, I think it does not redeem the "stinkiness" of the weapon.

A matter of opinion, obviously.
The 'apply bonuses for both hands' exploit makes it a wonderful off hand weapon, IMO. Definitely the best Longsword for general purposes.

A +6 THAC0 bonus and a +3 Damage bonus with each strike is not to be underestimated.

Now that i think of it - it should work the same for the Daystar, as well... Hmmm...

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: A matter of opinion, obviously. The 'apply bonuses for both hands' exploit makes it a wonderful off hand weapon, IMO. Definitely the best Longsword for general purposes. A +6 THAC0 bonus and a +3 Damage bonus with each strike is not to be underestimated. Now that i think of it - it should work the same for the Daystar, as well... Hmmm...

Whoop-dee-whoop, +6 THACO, wow... how earth-shattering.

Before Equaliser: Only miss on a Critical Miss
After Equaliser: Huh, wha? What difference?

It might as well be a +20 THACO bonus for all I care. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

+3 Damage? This might seem good, but it is misleading. You forgot to mention the damage lost in the off-hand. There is no point boosting the main-hand if you cripple the off-hand. Heck... I am fairly confident I will get better results using Celestial Fury instead of the Equaliser, and you know my thoughts on the CeFury.

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Whoop-dee-whoop, +6 THACO, wow... how earth-shattering. Before Equaliser: Only miss on a Critical Miss After Equaliser: Huh, wha? What difference? It might as well be a +20 THACO bonus for all I care. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Now, look what you've done, Dundee!
You've caused me to quote myself! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Me: All in all, the Equalizer is a very solid off-hand weapon indeed, IMO, especially for dual classed Fighters/Mages or Fighter/Thieves, who usually don't have a great THAC0 due to an early class-transition.

Even if one has ToB, level 13 will be the recommended level to dual.
Now, a level 13 fighter THAC0 (excluding the Kensai) is not superb, to say the least. Most probably, not good enough to hit most of the ToB baddies with each hit.
In that case, a +6 THAC0 bonus would be superb for the character.

Another example - backstabers.
Most of the Assassins don't have a good enough THAC0 to backstab the really tough, backstabable monsters. Well, now they do!

Here is a classic. A Swashbuckler/Mage.
This class is almost a Fighter/Thief->Mage Dual - we all know how good Swashies are. The only thing they lack is a low enough THAC0. Now they have that, too.

Open your mind, Dundee. Accept the gifts offered to you. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

+3 Damage? This might seem good, but it is misleading. You forgot to mention the damage lost in the off-hand.

You lost me here. Explain - why is the +3 damage lost?
The bonuses aren't transferred to the main hand - they are just applied to both hands, globally.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: All in all, the Equalizer is a very solid off-hand weapon indeed, IMO, especially for dual classed Fighters/Mages or Fighter/Thieves, who usually don't have a great THAC0 due to an early class-transition. Even if one has ToB, level 13 will be the recommended level to dual. Now, a level 13 fighter THAC0 (excluding the Kensai) is not superb, to say the least. Most probably, not good enough to hit most of the ToB baddies with each hit. In that case, a +6 THAC0 bonus would be superb for the character.

If I had a Fighter/Mage, I would use the time-honoured combination of Celestial Fury and Dak'kon's Zerth Blade. You do not hear people complaining about their THACO do you? A pureclassed Warrior will have extremely good THACO. A dual/multiclassed Warrior will still have good THACO.

They will have a base of 8 THACO at level 13. Factor in STR, Grandmastery and equipment, and they will still have such a ridiculously low THACO that they will hit almost all the time save through Critical Misses.

Another example - backstabers. Most of the Assassins don't have a good enough THAC0 to backstab the really tough, backstabable monsters. Well, now they do!

Backstabbing grants a +10 THACO bonus. I assure you, my pureclassed Assassin never missed with her oh so unspectacular Blade of Roses save through Critical Misses.

Here is a classic. A Swashbuckler/Mage. This class is almost a Fighter/Thief->Mage Dual - we all know how good Swashies are. The only thing they lack is a low enough THAC0. Now they have that, too.

Eh? Swashbucklers were chosen exactly because their THACO were better( one of the reasons at least)! Dualling at level 15 meant a further +3 to their THACO. They can Specialise too, further improving their THACO.

Open your mind, Dundee. Accept the gifts offered to you. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I would hardly consider the Equaliser as a gift. I consider it a con-job by Cromwell. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

You lost me here. Explain - why is the +3 damage lost? The bonuses aren't transferred to the main hand - they are just applied to both hands, globally.

I mean... in the grand scheme of things, you actually decrease your damage per round.

PS: I just double-checked, and you got the THACO and damage reversed. These are the true statistics of the Equaliser.

Long Sword: The Equalizer
Such is the age of this sword that its true origin has been lost to time, but markings hint that it was possibly forged in the service of Helm. Also called the "Sword of Neutrality", it seems designed to seek and terminate extremes, to shift the universe closer to harmonious equilibrium. The further the behavior of a target from true balance, the more potent the damage they suffer.

STATISTICS:

Always considered +3 when determining what it can hit.
THACO & Damage:
vs True Neutral: +0 to hit, +0 damage
vs Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Neutral +1 to hit, +2 damage
vs Neutral Good, Neutral Evil: +2 to hit, +4 damage
vs other alignments: +3 to hit, +6 damage
Damage type: slashing
Equipped Abilities:
Immune to Charm and Confusion
Weight: 3
Speed Factor: 3
Proficiency Type: Long sword
Type: 1-handed
Requires: 6 Strength
Not Usable By:
Druid
Cleric
Mage

So while I now see some use when I face Chaotic/Lawful Good/Evil opponents, take heed that not all enemy types fall into these categories. I might do some calculations though.

ADD] Rakshasa are Chaotic Neutral, Golems are True Neutral and Suneer is Neutral Evil. To cite some relevant examples.

ADD] ADD] Some more food for thought. Some Vampires are either Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral as well.

[ 11-21-2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: If I had a Fighter/Mage, I would use the time-honoured combination of Celestial Fury and Dak'kon's Zerth Blade. You do not hear people complaining about their THACO do you? A pureclassed Warrior will have extremely good THACO. A dual/multiclassed Warrior will still have good THACO. They will have a base of 8 THACO at level 13. Factor in STR, Grandmastery and equipment, and they will still have such a ridiculously low THACO that they will hit almost all the time save through Critical Misses.

Maybe the game rolls different dices for you and me.
In my games, a THAC0 of about -3 (assuming your STR, GM and equipment gave you a +11 bonus) is just not good enough in higher levels.

Backstabbing grants a +10 THACO bonus. I assure you, my pureclassed Assassin never missed with her oh so unspectacular Blade of Roses save through Critical Misses.

+5 THAC0 bonus, AFAIK.
Anyway, i missed quite a lot backstabs with my Assassins.
Different dices, again? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Or maybe it's because your solo Assassin just had all the good equipment for herself?

Eh? Swashbucklers were chosen exactly because their THACO were better( one of the reasons at least)! Dualling at level 15 meant a further +3 to their THACO. They can Specialise too, further improving their THACO.

Exactly - they are the only kind of Thief/Mages that can actually hit something. Still, their THAC0 and Damage aren't spectacular - the E's bonuses are a gift for them.

I would hardly consider the Equaliser as a gift. I consider it a con-job by Cromwell. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I hardly considered Nature's Beauty as a gift before i played with it a bit, too. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

PS: I just double-checked, and you got the THACO and damage reversed. These are the true statistics of the Equaliser. Long Sword: The Equalizer Such is the age of this sword that its true origin has been lost to time, but markings hint that it was possibly forged in the service of Helm. Also called the "Sword of Neutrality", it seems designed to seek and terminate extremes, to shift the universe closer to harmonious equilibrium. The further the behavior of a target from true balance, the more potent the damage they suffer. STATISTICS: Always considered +3 when determining what it can hit. THACO & Damage: vs True Neutral: +0 to hit, +0 damage vs Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Neutral +1 to hit, +2 damage vs Neutral Good, Neutral Evil: +2 to hit, +4 damage vs other alignments: +3 to hit, +6 damage Damage type: slashing Equipped Abilities: Immune to Charm and Confusion Weight: 3 Speed Factor: 3 Proficiency Type: Long sword Type: 1-handed Requires: 6 Strength Not Usable By: Druid Cleric Mage

Even better, then!
Damage bonus is usually superior than THAC0 bonuses.

I'll have to think of new examples, though!

So while I now see some use when I face Chaotic/Lawful Good/Evil opponents, take heed that not all enemy types fall into these categories. I might do some calculations though. ADD] Rakshasa are Chaotic Neutral, Golems are True Neutral and Suneer is Neutral Evil. To cite some relevant examples. ADD] ADD] Some more food for thought. Some Vampires are either Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral as well.

And we all know that Rakshasas, Some Vampires and Suneers are the vast majority of monsters in the game, Right? Wrong... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 11-21-2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: And we all know that Rakshasas, Some Vampires and Suneers are the vast majority of monsters in the game, Right? Wrong... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

There is a reason why I specifically mentioned those monsters. Who do you get to fight in Chapter 6-7? Unless you are one of the rare players that put off doing all the subquests until Chapter 6, these ARE going to be the most common monsters you will get to stick your Equaliser in.