Bringing Back the draft?

[Djinn Raffo]

I agree with Chewbacca's statement on that one.. compulsory service by law is not freedom.

[ 01-03-2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Very well said, Chewbacca. You brought up a most interesting point! I have another question to add to my previous list. In a draft, are you told which division you will serve in, or does the individual get at least that much freedom...so that one could pick where he feels he could be of most use? Example>>>I am not physically perfect enough to be infantry, but I am sure I could fly a plane or work equipment...or even a supplies division could suit me...but I could not ever win a man against man rolling in the dirt battle. I dont know how a new revised draft would work, but in the old days, if you didn't want to take a chance, at random assignment to military branch, you could enlist before they drew your number, and enlist with the branch you wanted to serve with. As for your qualifications, believe me, after the battery of tests you get put through (at least when Iw as being recruited) THEY know better where you would fit than you do... As for being a pilot, you need better than 20/20 eyesight, good aroenautical and engineering skills and have to be pretty sharp on the physics of flight...Pilots are the best of the best as far as mix of physical and mental qualifications...Infantry isn't trained to win a man to man in the dirt hand to hand fight [img]smile.gif[/img] we use variants of the M16 nowadays [img]smile.gif[/img] they aren't even going to fit the newer weapons for bayonets [img]smile.gif[/img] Oh and as for physical conditioning, Basic training takes care of that [img]smile.gif[/img] Edit: As for you in particular Larry, Im guessing they will be drafting young single persons with no dependants first, its not likely to be people older than 21 or 22 and I think currently 30 is the oldest you can be and enlist... This would be due to monetary constraints, married people cost the military more in pay and allowences and medical care and other support costs.

[ 01-03-2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Scholarcs]

I think that the draft would be a good thing for america - it would force people to put their money where their mouths are. Maybe some people wouldn't be so keen about a war when it is them, their parents, their children doing the fighting and taking the bullets.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: I agree with Chewbacca's statement on that one.. compulsory service by law is not freedom.

I disagree. We only use conscription in the USA to amass troops in times of need - and it has been a long time indeed. If you cannot fight for the freedom you enjoy, you simply do not deserve it to begin with.

Besides, complete freedom is NOT what we're about - in case you didn't know. It's freedom + social responsibility/ equality. You do NOT have full freedom. At the most basic level, you are not free to hurt other citizens. At another level, you cannot drive a car without obtaining governmental permission. You are not free to leave the country without proper documentation. You are not free to work unless you are a citizen. You are not free to steal. And you are certainly not free to say no when called to arms in defense of the nation you should thank whoever-the-hell your god is everyday for getting to bitch about.

Touting such complete freedom is the disease of freedom run-amuck with no responsibility that threatens to rise up and make us all unwashed hippy idiots in this country. And the dichotomy between freedom and equality (which are quite technically mutually exclusive) in this country has created sort of a national schizophrenia (or, more politely, an ongoing dialectic) that is a never-ending pendulum swinging between extreme ideas, searching for a balance. At some times, we're more free and individual in our view, at other times we a more scrutinizing of ourselves, focusing on the "equalities" we must force upon ourselves and the national responsibility we must have lest we die. Not that such flip-flopping of ideology is bad - as I've said before, there are some basic tensions and hypocricies inherent in the human condition.

Complete freedom = anarchy. Anarchy is only a viable option if you have enough of a powerbase and guns to protect yourself.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Touting such complete freedom is the disease of freedom run-amuck with no responsibility that threatens to rise up and make us all unwashed hippy idiots in this country. Bravo and well said Sir! It is sort of like the idea of a true democracy...which is nothing better than mob rule. And the dichotomy between freedom and equality (which are quite technically mutually exclusive) in this country has created sort of a national schizophrenia (or, more politely, an ongoing dialectic) that is a never-ending pendulum swinging between extreme ideas, searching for a balance. At some times, we're more free and individual in our view, at other times we a more scrutinizing of ourselves, focusing on the "equalities" we must force upon ourselves and the national responsibility we must have lest we die. Not that such flip-flopping of ideology is bad - as I've said before, there are some basic tensions and hypocricies inherent in the human condition. Complete freedom = anarchy. Anarchy is only a viable option if you have enough of a powerbase and guns to protect yourself. I loved the entire post because I completely agree and because you used big words like Dichotomy

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: Think of it as not letting any one get a free ride [img]smile.gif[/img] or look at it this way, Public education is compulsory and attendance is mandatory. School is good for you, a little bit of discipline and service to the country that gives you a reletively cushy nation to live in is also good for you If it is the thought of a little bit of danger that throws you off, get over it [img]smile.gif[/img] It is dangerous just waking up in the morning....seriously, more people die in their home than any where else...I read that somewhere....

Sure, Some sort of schooling is mandatory until you are an adult, but you dont really have freedom until adulthood anyway.

At that point it may be some peoples vision of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to join the military, and I respect their decision and the freedom to make it or not. And that is what freedom is about.

My vision of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness does not include mandatory boot camp!

As far as danger goes, I work in an American inner-city. In the last year we have had a shooting , a stabbing and three armed robberies, all within a block of my store and a manned police kiosk. My life has been threatened on a few occassions and every time I confront a shoplifter it could mean a knife or a gun in my face. You are right, Danger is waking up everyday.

The military trains you and commands you to kill other pople in mass and with effiency. I think it is only fair and equitable that a person should have a choice as to whether or not they will participate.

And as far a contributing a fair share, 1/3rd of my income goes to taxes, how much more will they take to fund a mammoth military and prison system. I pay my fair share and so does anyone else who works hard and pays taxes.

Nope, mandatory service has alot of flaws.

I think the real irony is that Rep. Rangel, a Korean Vet, voted against military action in Iraq and seems to want re-instate the draft so every citizen would have a personal stake in war and think long and hard about the costs of war before agreeing to it.

Hey, Chewie I want saying that YOU were concerned about the danger personally, It was the metaphorical you, as in them and they.

But guess who determines that you are an adult? The Government has set that age, so if they can set the age at which you gain your majority, they can also set the age at which you are free to exercise your god given rights. Unless you are an atheist in which case you have no rights under the constitution since it is God who has given the rights

Edit: Compulsory service has few real flaws, and a lot of positives, both to the individual and to the society as a whole. A little discipline can go a looong way. Not everyone knows what is good for them, mayhap that in a compulsory disciplined service, you (not you you,...them you...the metaphorical you) could learn something you never dreamed of?!

[ 01-03-2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Djinn Raffo]

What you say is totally true Timber. But imo their is a line to be drawn somewhere.. That line comes after drivers licenses and before conscription.

Compulsory military service in peace time is one thing and in war time is another. I think a stint in the military would be a good thing for a lot of people. Builds character, overcomes adversity, teaches teamwork etc. etc.

But it is truly my opinion that the military is a job.. a profession. And if someone does not want to enter the military.. they should not have to under penalty of incarceration. That is not freedom in any sense imo including the half-freedom under law that you mention that is what exists today. True freedom like you said is anarchy. And conscription is... is just not any type of freedom in any sense.. That is my opinion.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Scholarcs: I think that the draft would be a good thing for america - it would force people to put their money where their mouths are. Maybe some people wouldn't be so keen about a war when it is them, their parents, their children doing the fighting and taking the bullets.

Um... draft or not, it is us, our parents, and our children who have always done the fighting and taken the bullets.

[ 01-03-2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Piestrider]

Is the draft bias at all about who gets put in the armed forces first? for example: (I think this point may have been brought up earlier) Would they first draft all of the males in America between the ages of 18 and 30 that are single and didnt go to college before they draft college students or married men. Also, if you are in college are you exempt from being drafted?