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11-30-2001, 09:50 AM
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#21 |
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Guest
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quote: Umm hehehe  It looks like you already said in a couple sentences what I was trying to say in several paragraphs...I really really need to take some written communications courses [img]smile.gif[/img]
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11-30-2001, 09:59 AM
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#22 |
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Guest
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250 [img]smile.gif[/img] you sounded like a waaaay angry person there [img]smile.gif[/img]
I think people and family are more important than "things" I would never consider sacrificing a person for anything I own, on the other hand...For all the claims that "materialistic" people look down on those who don't have the things that are cool...I seem to detect the same sort of prejudice in this thread against people who buy trendy or faddish things...what makes you so much better than them..its all one form of bias. Spirituality is what a person is not what he has...if all he/she can talk about is what they have then they are shallow, if all you can talk about is how much more "spiritual" you are over someone else then you are shallow. Don't just pick a personality trait to critisize in others..improve yourself. We all have a value in the greater scheme of things...that trendy style setting consumer is spending money which goes to corporations which pay employees who go out and experience life...its a cycle and we are all part of it....Am I wrong? |
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11-30-2001, 10:08 AM
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#23 |
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Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: either CA or MO
Age: 42
Posts: 2,674
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quote: thats what I am talking about, stop using "I am a spritual rich guy" to look down on people who pursue (but not solely) material things. and why did you get the idea that I am angry? I am not angry, just pissed off |
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11-30-2001, 10:20 AM
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#24 |
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It was just the impression I got from your post [img]smile.gif[/img] uhhh what is the difference between angry and pissed off?
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11-30-2001, 10:36 AM
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#25 |
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Fzoul Chembryl
 Join Date: August 30, 2001
Location: somewhere
Age: 54
Posts: 1,785
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quote: One must have balance. The ability to make money is the ability to provide. Your appearance reflects this. That's why people put such stock in fashion. You don't have to be rich, just comfortable. I don't think it's overly materialistic to want a house, decent car, good food, the occasional vacation, and enough to send the kids to college. You want to better yourself until you don't have to struggle. You should have a positive savings balance, not a negative credit card debt. Not being able to bring yourself to date someone who doesn't make at least a six figure salary? Now THAT'S materialistic. I've known more than a couple pretty girls who spent most of their twenties looking for a guy like this.
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Master Barbsman and wielder of the razor wit!<br /><br />There are dark angels among us. They present themselves in shining raiment but there is, in their hearts, the blackness of the abyss. |
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11-30-2001, 10:43 AM
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#26 |
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Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781
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quote: No worries on length, Magik :smirk, sorry couldn't resist...: My dislike for brands is very much a political thing. Like a lot of big name brands (and 'generic' manufacturers come to that) Nike are well known for having their products made in the third world, often in countries run by repressive regimes, with whom Nike (and other companies) collude. Production of Nike goods is all contracted out to subcontractors, who then subcontract out in their turn, and again, there is little or no connection between Nike and the workforce that make their goods, in what have commonly come to be known as sweatshops. I'm not picking on Nike exclusively here, it's a trend that has snowballed in the US and other western countries, leading to a massive loss of US based jobs. The corporations are screwing American citizens, and they're screwing the third world workers who make their products. Arguments that the workers get paid enough for a good living standard in their own country are rubbish. That's just not true, except for a few minor exceptions. There's been so much consumer backlash against Nike in the past couple of years that they've started running scared, and have set up this labour/environmental committee, ostensibly to guarantee that human rights abuses don't take place. The committee hasn't really got off the ground yet, and it will be interesting to see if it actually does do something about the appalling working conditions and wages which workers making products for Nike, The Gap and many many many others have to endure. I hope so, as where Nike lead, others are likely to follow. However, currently the situation on the stock market is that companies who cut costs radically by laying off employees and moving production to the third world (often whilst spending millions and millions on big campaigns to build brand) see their stock soar, whereas those who don't, find themselves in big shit because they can't compete. There is what amounts to a stampede into the third world, and has been for some time. What price recession, boys and girls? No jobee, no spendee monee.... Doh.... I'd be quite happy to buy branded goods from a company that had some old fashioned principles about responsibility to their employees, upheld human rights abroad, and treat the environment with respect, rather than their own personal toilet.
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11-30-2001, 11:58 AM
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#27 |
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Good points all SC [img]smile.gif[/img] There are some things I think are over looked in the discussion of western manufacutrers useing 3rd world labor to make thier goods....if all the manufacturers were to leave those 3rd world countries and abandon their sweatshops, it is arguable that the people currently makeing a disgustingly low wage (by western standards) would then have NO wage. in a few cases the governments have forced the people into taking those jobs but from what Ive come to believe is that the people are taking those jobs because they have no other means of survival...now should the west promote the 3rd world governments to become more enlightened..yes..and there are efforts being made to do just that...the west does push for human rights and in general acknowledges the fact that human life is worth something, unfortunatly this cultural slant is not shared by all religions and or cultures. How do you force the belief that children and women are as valuable as men, on a billion people when their religion and culture tells them this is not so? So untill we change the view of those cultures we chip away at it...companies make money at the same time. Is it all altruistic NOPE not even close...but in the end I think they are better for having some influance there than none at all.
As for the loss of jobs here in the States due to us shipping the manufacturing elsewhere....yes some people hwo cannot grow and change with the times have been hurt, but as with any species, the power to grow and adapt is vital to success. We shifted away from manufacutring as the base for our economy some time ago, but that didnt mean we didnt open up new areas of opportunity. Blue collar jobs still abound, but in the modern world the white collar positions are where the wealth is at, brute force is no longer the determinant of how far you can go...we don't care how many trees you can chop, or acres you can plow or bales you can lift...more important now is how smart are you? how can you advance useing intelligence...Its not a new trend, bigger brains have been succeeding where brute force has failed since the days of the caveman... I feel bad that not everyone lives in the same comfort that I do, but I also realize that while the companies that make this possible for me are taking advantage of less fortunate individuals...I also believe they are contributing in some ways to better those unfortunate peoples. I say keep working to force change on the so called 3rd world cultures...but in the end, there is only so much change that can be forced froom the outside, true change must come from the desire within.....Im nto saying there is an easy answer...I just do not believe that the west and western moores and valuse are the evil that some would portray. whew!!! Im out of words for a bit I think [img]smile.gif[/img] at least as long as it takes SC to bring up interesting ideas [img]smile.gif[/img] |
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11-30-2001, 02:04 PM
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#28 |
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Mephistopheles
 Join Date: August 30, 2001
Location: deep within the sylvan splendor....
Age: 60
Posts: 1,443
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quote: Nothing in the world wrong with having or wanting pretty things---as long as you don't let the drive for acquisition rule your life, 250. Some, like your uncle, have set certain priorities (family, friends first) and then managed to acquire niceties in a manner that does not conflict those priorities. That's a good thing, but unfortunately a lot of people can't do this. Somewhere along the way they become consumed with materialism. Having the latest (fill in the blank) is more important than spending time with the children or going with friends. They tell themselves it's because that in this world, if you don't have a brand spanking new computer or car or XXX brand shoes, you just don't rate as worthwhile. What they have in essence done is cashed in part of their humanity. They have foregone their spirituality. Spirituality is more than non-materialism. Indeed one need not preclude the other. Spirituality is usually thought of as being the connection between self and Deity. While that is ultimately so, it is also the link with your own soul. A person can have all the bright shiny items life and money can buy and still be empty inside. They have voluntarily neglected their own souls in their race for acquisition. They try to fill the empty spot with more things, only to find that things cannot possibly ever suffice. So they continue to add to their belongings fruitlessly. They are never quite able to find happiness since no one else can ever make another person happy. Only you can make yourself happy (but others attribute and amplify the happiness). They live within a glittering diamond sphere, outwardly beautiful and yet utterly cold and empty. On the other end of the spectrum you have those who have nothing (that most would consider material goods) and are as unhappy and bitter at their inability to acquire niceties. They feel sure that if they could just buy (fill in the blank) then life would be so much better. Unfortunately this world requires a certain financial status to fund acquisition and the lack thereof grates on some's lives. They too neglect their spirituality by pushing it aside in their never-ending fight to 'better' themselves in social status. Then you have all the various strata in the middle. I do not personally understand the kids of today in school fighting and killing each other over brand named jackets and shoes and such. I don't understand people who would rather have less to eat each week than sacrifice buying a certain brand at a much higher price, even though quality may not be an issue and quantity certainly is! Why buy designer clothes and then have to worry if the utilities are paid for another month? It's a matter of priorities. My own rely heavily on how I feel on the inside, not how my physical trappings appear to others. Our house is decorated in 'early garage sale' (second hand furniture and a few very good quality antiques mixed with the occasional new purchase) yet it is a very warm ,inviting place. I have clothes that are 14 years old and some that are only a few months old. A few are good quality designer types, but most of them are comfortable and quality no-name. We have a 3' tv, a year old pc, and heat with wood only. We like to listen to music, love to read and have books ranging from turn of the century published to Goosebumps. Emphasis is more on games and things we can do as a family or, in the case of books, what the majority of us enjoy with individuals choices as well. We're not church-goers even tho we do belong to a superb, caring congregation. We do have a very active spiritual life, however. My connection to Deity is possible because I have connected to my self, not because I have 'things'. I enjoy a few brands of things and certainly believe quality should not be sacrified within reason. I do not agree with certain manufacturers' business practices, but my refusal to buy their products have little to do with that displeasure--it has more to do with the fact that I find the quality of their product inferior (probably attributable to their business practices) and hardly worth my time to help pay their advertising. Sure, I wish I could afford nicer things sometimes. I wish I could afford better things for my kids. Don't we all? But at what cost? Should we teach them material goods are more important than their own souls? Sorry this is so long. And so rambling. Maybe I'll actually get my thoughts together and make some sense later.....
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"Nature tells every secret once." Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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11-30-2001, 02:08 PM
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#29 |
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Account deleted by Request
Join Date: May 17, 2001
Location: .
Age: 38
Posts: 8,802
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Garnet, that wasn't rambling, that was well written and brought your point across very well, I think many people would learn a lot from reading your post here.
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11-30-2001, 03:19 PM
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#30 |
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Ironworks Moderator
 Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,788
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Political considerations aside, I have come to the conclusion through experience as a consumer that some "name" brands do give value for money in the long run due to the quality of the manufacture.
At this moment, I am wearing a Ben Sherman shirt (sale bargain), fake Levi 501's and genuine Caterpiller boots (haggled and got 10% off). Do I feel any more or less spiritual? I have really no idea, what I can tell you is that I feel comfortable, cozy and well clad. In my experience, when basic bodily needs are taken care of, you are better able to think deep thoughts. But then again, I was never going to be an ascetic philosopher type
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Regards  Mouse (Occasional crooner and all round friendly Scottish rodent) |
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