Bush violates protestors' rights!

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Look at these people (picture below), do they really deserve free speech? IMO, these professional assholes need to put down the bong, take a shower, and get a job so they can quit siphoning off daddy's trust fund.

I have a job, I shower everyday, and my Daddy doesn't have a trust fund. Of course I boycotted the protest zone in protest of the conditions inside the protest zone so I missed the photo-OP but I understand the statement those people are making. Besides, why should I sit in a deplorable cage when the entire Boston Common is open and free for rally and protest?

Anyway, What about you? Do you deserve free speech anymore than the people you so childishly and shallowly ridicule?

[Oblivion437]

Lay off the personal attacks...

If you abuse your rights, and infringe upon the rights of others, no, you don't deserve them.

If the only reason you're protesting is because it's in vogue, you're abusing the power recoginzed of you. You're not smart enough to use it right, so don't use it. Not that anyone has any right to make that reality pre-emptively, or even post-emptively, unless of course you commit violations on the rights of others.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Free speech is the right to speak out. But, making people listen, interrupting traffic, having sit-ins, disrupting society, etc. goes too far. Free speech itself can be used to abuse society, and through it a very small minority can crash a whole system.

Yeah, a small minority in the South 40-50 years ago sure disrupted racist society. Those uppity no-gooders.

On the point of interupting traffic... The DNC has closed down a freaking interstate for 4 whole days and shut down a busy train station. I hear NY NY is going to have similiar closures for the RNC. Those no-good political parties disrupting society. Curses! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Making people listen? How exactly does one make people listen? Point a gun at them and threaten to kill them unless they listen? Or do they use a microphone/megaphone/simply shout? Sound like things a person could ignore or walk away from. *yawn*

And sit-ins! The end of society is caused by people taking over a building and occupying it. OMFG! They could unfurl signs of protest from the windows! Heavens to mercatroid!!! The evil men do!!!!!


DAMN YOU PROTESTERS!!!!!!! *shakes fist*


*Rolls Eyes*

[ 07-30-2004, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Nightwing]

It is very difficult to draw the line what is safe and what is a violation of our rights. Keeping people with high emotion away from each other is a smart thing to do. People don't need to protest near the event, they could be 100s of miles away. With the way the media covers things these days location is not that important. I agree you get stronger impact if you are in the same area but you don't have to be. Look at all the publicity this is creating for the protesters. This is far better news for them than if they would have had if they could be right outside.

The way image is so important to people today, do we really think the canidates did not know what was going on with these zones? If they didn't, which is highly unlikely, they could take a leadership roll and make things a little more comfortable now. That is not their responsibillity but it would be right way to treat people, Isn't that why they want to be elected, to serve the people.

To think that these protesters can even come close to relating to the prisoners at Abu Gharib or Auschwitz is just short sighted and disrespectful of what those people have been though. Protesters should keep it real and not grandstand with such ridiculous stunts.

[Timber Loftis]

It's funny that we don't know what they originally showed up to protest because they ended up protesting about the form of protest instead. Were they really there to try to protest against the DNC? Or just protest generally, with a lot of the same "Evil WTO" mantra we always hear? (Note that I think there are good arguments against the WTO, I just get sick of the same shit every day. I think if we want candidates to be specific, we can ask the same of any protestor that wants to be considered credible.)

Anyway, I repeat that, because taken to the fartherst extremes freedom of speech can get ridiculous, it is perfectly legal to limit the TIME PLACE AND MANNER of the speech. It's happened all through history. Hari Krishnas got on everyone's nerves at the airport -- no free speech is allowed in airports now.

Nothing wrong with making it such that us folks just trying to go about our lives don't have to step over the extreme left or right vocal minority everywhere we go. This doesn't just apply to the rainbow people I parodied in my first post, it also applies to the throngs of zealots trying to bar women from entering a planned parenthood center. It is okay to require such groups to make their speech at certain times and in certain places.

Hell, they're still getting news coverage, so what do they care.

I will completely concede that a wise DNC plan would have dealt with this differently.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Anyway, What about you? Do you deserve free speech anymore than the people you so childishly and shallowly ridicule?

No.

But, what I did do was quit standing around as part of the powerless masses just shouting and shaking my fist. I decided I wanted to learn the rules of society and then try to actually work to change those rules. And, I wanted to do this most in the area of environmental protection. So I went to law school and now everyday I get to make the differences I once just ranted about. Every time I patiently explain to a client why it is in their best interest to prevent or clean up contamination, or come into compliance with regulatory requirements, I accomplish more than I did in all my time ranting and protesting. It's not that I've never marched before.

You'll forgive me if I consider "childish and shallow" to apply to the actions of the protestors rather than myself. You'll also forgive me if I refer you to the TOS so you can confirm your demeanor toward me is in compliance with the rules of the forum. I'll leave it up to you to decide. Both you and I have shown that we sometimes don't stay within the bounds of those rules, so I'm just going to raise the issue for you and let you check it out.

[ 07-30-2004, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: Anyway, What about you? Do you deserve free speech anymore than the people you so childishly and shallowly ridicule?

No.

But, what I did do was quit standing around as part of the powerless masses just shouting and shaking my fist. I decided I wanted to learn the rules of society and then try to actually work to change those rules. And, I wanted to do this most in the area of environmental protection. So I went to law school and now everyday I get to make the differences I once just ranted about. Every time I patiently explain to a client why it is in their best interest to prevent or clean up contamination, or come into compliance with regulatory requirements, I accomplish more than I did in all my time ranting and protesting. It's not that I've never marched before.
[/QUOTE]Kudos to you.

You'll forgive me if I consider "childish and shallow" to apply to the actions of the protestors rather than myself. You'll also forgive me if I refer you to the TOS so you can confirm your demeanor toward me is in compliance with the rules of the forum. I'll leave it up to you to decide. Both you and I have shown that we sometimes don't stay within the bounds of those rules, so I'm just going to raise the issue for you and let you check it out.

I didn't say you were childish and shallow, but that the ridicule of the protesters was. My issue is with the idea expressed, not the expresser of the idea. My aplogies if that was not clear.

[Oblivion437]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Yeah, a small minority in the South 40-50 years ago sure disrupted racist society. Those uppity no-gooders.

You're implicitly calling those who oppose you on this point racists. I suggest you tread very, very lightly here on out, or else tread not. You're on unstable, unsound and unsafe ground. What's more you make a false analogy.

On the point of interupting traffic... The DNC has closed down a freaking interstate for 4 whole days and shut down a busy train station. I hear NY NY is going to have similiar closures for the RNC. Those no-good political parties disrupting society. Curses! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Indeed, the Libertarians have never been so rude. Besides, they plan this sort of thing out years in advance, like the NRA plans their conventions. Everyone involved has plenty of time to get ready and make sure that the presence within the (very large) designated area and the shutdown of nearby facilities for their use won't be a problem.

Making people listen? How exactly does one make people listen? Point a gun at them and threaten to kill them unless they listen? Or do they use a microphone/megaphone/simply shout? Sound like things a person could ignore or walk away from. *yawn*

What you're forgetting is that there are enough of these lithium-deficient morons to block whole public thoroughfares. If you can't go forward, can't go back, and you can't go through a public thoroughfare because these people are disrupting it, what they're doing is very stupid, and potentially dangerous. These vidiots aren't smart to begin with, but when you give them something heavy to wield like a sign, something to hit, and a half-assed excuse to get violent, they do stupid things. Even stupider than standing around holding up signs and getting laughed at by the general public.

And sit-ins! The end of society is caused by people taking over a building and occupying it. OMFG! They could unfurl signs of protest from the windows! Heavens to mercatroid!!! The evil men do!!!!!

Are you forgetting we're talking about a public thoroughfare, and not a private area? In which case, if they were uninvited, the owner would be more than welcome to open fire on the silly bastards if they won't leave peacably and the police have decided they don't have to do anything. They are after all intruders, invading a private facility...That's another matter entirely.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: Yeah, a small minority in the South 40-50 years ago sure disrupted racist society. Those uppity no-gooders.

You're implicitly calling those who oppose you on this point racists. I suggest you tread very, very lightly here on out, or else tread not. You're on unstable, unsound and unsafe ground. What's more you make a false analogy.
[/QUOTE]Your the one making falsehoods here. The only implication of racism is directed at those who supported Jim Crow and Segregation a half century ago. These people where confronted and ultimately defeated by protests, boycotts, sit-ins and general civil disobedience. My analogy is quite true, but your accusations of race-baiting is a real falsehood.

The rest of your post is so worthy of being deemed 'laced with flamebait', it is not even worth replying too.

[Oblivion437]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Your the one making falsehoods here. The only implication of racism is directed at those who supported Jim Crow and Segregation a half century ago.

No such distinction is made. Rather, you lumped Yorick in with them. As I said, don't do it again, it makes you look rather uncivil.

These people where confronted and ultimately defeated by protests, boycotts, sit-ins and general civil disobedience. My analogy is quite true, but your accusations of race-baiting is a real falsehood.

What analogy? You're comparing the protestors of then to the ones of now? Do you even know the difference? Or in your ultra-relative universe do you not know of differences, as men who look at the sky fail to notice it is blue?

If that's the analogy you're making, you're comparing noble, well-minded and great human beings with over-bored and mindless manure-for-brained dullards, who actually think the world can be saved by holding up a cardboard sign and chanting slogans. Another key difference: The Civil Rights protestors were willing to die for what they believed in, these lighter-fluid for brains morons aren't.

Your entire point is either so meaningless, or so damn wrong-headed, that the point is either rescinded or ignored.

The rest of your post is so worthy of being deemed 'laced with flamebait', it is not even worth replying too.

I've had enough of your chicken-shit dismissal games. This is the last lump of Western Apathy I'm going to reply to.