Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush Pt II

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Davros: Sure Oblivion - your opinion is noted, but it remains just that - your opinion. Well argued of course, but still largely unsubstantiated.

Well, I have to agree with Oblivion on this one - at least in principle.

I honostly don't know if Heston was difficult to work with during his peak years and major movies - but I certainly agree that one incident occurring towards the end of his very successful career does not make a case for him being difficult to work with.

If you have other incidents from different films and/or directors that worked with him throughout his career, then you would have a case.

One thing I will say is that Heston was a mega-star in Hollywood at a time when only a select few actors/actresses reached that type of pinnacle (unlike today when we seem to have numerous "big name" stars), so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he WAS demanding and difficult to work with. After all, the success or failure of the films often hinged directly on him - and that is a LOT of leverage to work with.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Self-hating? Demeaning his heritage and himself? In what way(s)? To me he seems to be attempting to critique himself, and his culture. Trying to identify the defining nuances of a society and lifestyle that he believes to be riddled with deep-seated problems. I dunno, I just don't see how this equates to hating himself, or 'his people', or 'his heritage' as you call it. I can see your narcissist point, he certainly takes on a holier-than-thou tone alot of the time. But that's ok, because so do you, and so do I. No worries, we're allowed to [img]smile.gif[/img] To be honest, and I'm not attacking you or trying to pick a fight here, but I think that your response to his movie(s) actually provides vital evidence for alot of what he's trying to say. You display an angry, frustrated, even pseudo-violent response to his criticism of certain values, legends and mythology that you obviously hold dear. Why do you think that is? Why are you unable to simply disagree with his opinions, shrug your shoulders, and say 'to each his own' and go about enjoying your life? Why do his opinions have such a strong hold on you? How do you think your beliefs and the way you have been indoctrinated (and we've all been indoctrinated, one way or another) fit into all this?

I don't know if Moore is "self-hating" or not, but he does seem to go out of his way to portray himself as a simple, blue-collar type of guy - when the reality is far, far different. Aside from the extremely expensive apartment/loft/whatever he owns in NYC (with a prime view of Central Park), he also has a large number of staff personnel working for him. In the recent incident where he declined to show up in Houston (IIRC) for a presentation of F 9/11, Moore had sent staff members ahead to arrange the details for his visit (He cancelled at the last minute - allegedly because some locals delivered huge bags of manure to the drive-in theater that was going to show F 9/11. Their thinking was that one pile of "B.S." deserved another". [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] Moore cancelled his scheduled visit, supposedly after hearing about the negative reaction he was likely to recieve.

As for the rest of your comments, Heirophant, I have to agree completely. As a former "rabid anti-Moore" person, I have to say that his films and the shenanigans used in them simply aren't worth getting so worked up over. And despite my personal dislike for him on general principal, he does actually have some good points in BfC.

I label myself a "former rabid anti-Moore" person because - while I do still dislike him and his films quite a bit - the intensity of that dislike has lessened dramatically after watching BfC. I realized that most of the accusations against his film ARE true and accurate (in my opinion, anyway), yet he did have some good points in there too. I think he would be FAR more successful at actually achieving his desired goals (whatever they are) IF he could refrain from manipulating the data he presents so much. If I have to change around the facts supporting my argument in order to give my opinion more power, then I have actually done the opposite and weakened my argument instead.

The gun deaths per country is a good example. If Moore had used law enforcement statistics for the U.S. (like he did with every other country), his point still would have been made - because the U.S. is just so much farther ahead of other countries in that category. But Moore decided to use data from a healthcare source instead to "pump up" the number of U.S. deaths even more. WHY? The F.B.I. stats would [b]still[b] have put the U.S. way out in front of other countries, even though it was about 3,000 less than the number provided by the C.D.C.

It's shenanigans like this that weaken Moore's arguments overall in my opinion. But either way, I don't get nearly as upset at him or his films as I did as recently as the start of this topic on the forum. Heck, who knows, I might even rent F 9/11 when it comes out just to see what it is like too.

[Davros]

Glad to see you added the line "(in my opinion anyway)" [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[Oblivion437]

I only really started to hate Moore after watching BfC...

Before that, I thought of it as, oh well, another bullshitter. Then I saw the film. Now I wouldn't mind if he fell in the East River.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: I only really started to hate Moore after watching BfC... Before that, I thought of it as, oh well, another bullshitter. Then I saw the film. Now I wouldn't mind if he fell in the East River.

Hey, good for you. At the very least, thanks for giving me insight into the way your mind works...

Cerek: Thanks for the clarification.

[Oblivion437]

I never said I'd push him

Or at least, I won't get implicated in pushing him in. Besides, the East River isn't so toxic it'll kill you, but you will float into things that you'd like to think don't exist.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: Besides, one event, the lousy remake to the excellent Planet of the Apes, doesn't take away a whole history of excellent work and a good reputation among the most significant film makers of all time.

Who? Heston? Heston was an actor, not a filmmaker. Thank goodness he didn't write the screenplays is all I can say.

[Oblivion437]

Have you ever seen Touch of Evil? He had a hand in that. A big hand.

Besides, you've never read one of his screenplays, if he's written any, so who are you to make hasty generalizations about his abilities?

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: Besides, you've never read one of his screenplays, if he's written any, so who are you to make hasty generalizations about his abilities?

I found that an extremely funny sentence to read.