Massachusetts high court: Same-sex couples entitled to marry

[Chewbacca]

Not trying further any religious discussion, I thought this story offered a potentially unique perspective, this is the first I have heard of a fundamentalist Christian Republican politician who is for equal rights for homosexuals and I feel it is worth walking the line a bit more to offer it.

Link

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On most matters, Lorence Wenke is a staunch conservative.

The 58-year-old state representative from Richland Township opposes abortion and gun control. He backs small government and tax cuts.

A member of a fundamentalist church, he includes a verse of Scripture on his business card and participates in a Bible-study group for state legislators.

One would be hard-pressed to find a more unlikely advocate for gay rights.

Yet Wenke plans to be one of perhaps only two House Republicans voting against putting on the November ballot a Marriage Protection Amendment, which would change Michigan's constitution to ban gay marriage.

And he is opposing the bill, he said, out of a long-held and deeply felt belief that discrimination against homosexuals violates democratic principles and his Christian values.

"I kept quiet when African-Americans were facing discrimination," he said. "There have been too many people who have been discriminated against in my lifetime, and this time I'm not going to sit quietly while somebody is being mistreated.

"This is a matter of conscience. There's nothing in it for me."

He said his vote "will hurt me personally," and it already has.

Two Sundays ago, while Wenke and his wife were attending services at Richland Bible Church, the parking lot was blanketed with leaflets informing church members of Wenke's opposition to the Marriage Protection Amendment and urging them to take Wenke to task.

Gary Glenn, president of the Midland-based American Family Association of Michigan, which distributed the fliers, said, "We thought it was an effective way to communicate with a constituency who we thought would be most likely to persuade Rep. Wenke to change his mind."

Glenn also said that, by opposing the proposed amendment, Wenke would be denying his constituents an opportunity to vote on an issue of vital concern, and there is little doubt it would hurt Wenke politically.

"He's taking a standing contrary to President George W. Bush, against the Republican Party and against almost every Republican in the Legislature," Glenn said. "It will hurt him and it should. ... I'm sure the people of his legislative district would prefer to have someone who will represent their views on something so fundamental."

Wenke knows it's likely that colleagues, friends and constituents in his heavily Republican district will be perplexed and even upset that he is voicing support for gay rights in terms even some Democrats are hesitant to use.

"It's certainly going to make re-election more difficult," said Wenke, whose term expires this year.

Still, he said, it's a matter of principle.

"It's all about this double standard and unequal treatment," he said. "It's just not fair."

A spiritual context

Wenke has pondered the gay-rights issue for years, but as an intellectual exercise rather than a personal issue.

"I'm not gay. Nobody in my family is gay," said Wenke, who has been married for 37 years and has two grown children, including a son who is a minister. "I've never had a homosexual experience in my life."

His one personal connection is a childhood friend, Doug Sipsma. On the wall of his Lansing office there is a framed newspaper article about Sipsma and his male partner, who were recently married in Ottawa, Ontario.

"Doug and I grew up together," Wenke said. "We were the only two boys in our class of seven at Comstock Christian School, first through sixth grade."

He and Sipsma later graduated together from Kalamazoo Christian High School in the early 1960s, Wenke said. Theirs was a childhood steeped in religion, with church services twice on Sundays, catechism class one night a week and school classrooms where the Bible was the most important textbook.

Wenke went on to Calvin College before he took over the family bedding-plant business and turned it into a multimillion-dollar operation. In 1994, Wenke moved to the political arena, getting elected to the Kalamazoo County Board of Commissioners, eventually serving as chairman. He won his state House seat in 2002, campaigning on a platform of tax cuts and economic growth.

Wenke didn't stay in touch with Sipsma after high school. But over the years, he heard from mutual acquaintances how Sipsma had divorced his wife and come out of the closet as a gay man.

Sipsma's story got Wenke thinking about the causes of homosexuality and whether it was a sin. He researched the topic, delving into scientific studies and the teachings of the Christian Reformed Church.

By the late 1980s, Wenke had decided "that popular opinion on this subject was wrong," that the so-called homosexual lifestyle was not a choice, but a biological destiny.

And if sexual orientation is not a choice, he decided, then discriminating against gays made no more sense than discrimination based on race. He said he strongly believes that if more people understood that homosexuality is biological, much of the opposition to gays would ebb.

When a Christian Reformed minister started an organization 15 years ago to gain greater acceptance of gays within the church, Wenke said he contributed money to support his efforts and brought him to Kalamazoo for a series of conversations.

It was no coincidence that Wenke's first support of gay rights came in a religious context.

"Certainly my No. 1 priority in life is my relationship with God," Wenke said.

At the last State of the State address, his guest of honor was his pastor. And he keeps his business closed on Sunday, pointing to the Bible's Fifth Commandment.

"I'm one of the few dinosaurs that says this should be a day of worship and rest," he said. "Most of my competitors are open on Sunday. Sunday is the second-best shopping day of the week. But I still think this is a commandment that should be kept."

Modern society's blithe acceptance of Sunday as a good day to visit the mall leads him to a larger point -- that devout Christians already have adjusted Biblical teachings to fit their needs, which should allow some slack on the issue of homosexuality.

He offers quotes from the Bible to support his point that the Scripture is even more condemning of divorce than homosexuality. Yet divorced and remarried couples are now welcomed at even fundamentalist churches, he said. Likewise, he said, many denominations, including Christian Reformed, have moved beyond the Biblical teaching against women speaking in church.

While he supports the new role of women in the church and greater acceptance of divorce, he said, it shows how "we Christians have decided that parts of the Bible don't apply to us anymore."

"So if we can put aside the teachings on women, on divorce, on the Sabbath -- and those are all things that we choose -- then why not on homosexuality, when we don't choose our sexual orientation?" Wenke said.

"Why can't we be as kind and generous in interpreting the Bible for homosexuals as we are for ourselves?"

'Suicide mission'

Wenke is politically ambitious.

He wouldn't mind becoming a state senator, speaker of the House, a congressman.

He wonders aloud if his stance on this issue will kill his political career. "I'm on a suicide mission," he said.

He does not want to be a spokesman for gay rights. "This isn't my issue," Wenke said. "Job growth, taxes, smaller government -- those are my issues. ... I didn't come here to fight this battle. I'm sort of angry that it's come up the way it has."

Wenke said he hasn't talked much to his Republican colleagues or his friends about his feelings on gay rights.

"It's difficult to talk to people about this," he said. "People have their opinions and they're usually solid in their convictions."

Friends and colleagues say that, while Wenke's stance on gay rights is surprising, he is known for his strong opinions and occasionally unconventional views.

"He loves to be a gadfly," said Larry Kiser, pastor of Richland Bible Church. "He gets a little mad sometimes at the right-wing Christian mentality. ... He think there's a tendency to oversimplify."

Rep. Jack Hoogendyk, the conservative Republican from Texas Township, said that, in the Legislature, Wenke is regarded as a dependable vote for the GOP; still, "he's not as predictable as some might have predicted." His reputation is such, Hoogendyk said, that Democrats were a majority on the Kalamazoo County board when Wenke was elected chairman.

Neither Hoogendyk nor Kiser, who are strong supporters of the Marriage Protection Act, have talked to Wenke about his view.

Kiser plans to vigorously lobby Wenke on the issue. "Lorence is no theologian, and I think he's wrong in how he's interpreting Scripture," he said.

But even if neither man changes the other's mind, Kiser said, it is unlikely to affect their close friendship. Others at Richland Bible Church might not be as understanding, he said.

"Obviously, it will have some effect on how some people in this church perceive Lorence," Kiser said. "It will make it difficult for him to have a leadership position."

Yet Hoogendyk and Kiser hesitate to say how much Wenke's stance will ultimately hurt him -- politically and otherwise.

Kiser was upset by the American Family Association's leaflet campaign, saying their methods were mean-spirited and immoral.

Hoogendyk said he's interested in talking with Wenke, but stressed he doesn't want this issue to jeopardize their personal and professional relationship.

"I will always respect a person more who has a principle behind his vote," Hoogendyk said, "than someone who votes with me most of the time, but doesn't have a core."

Wenke said he was conflicted about speaking out. But, he added, "the whole movement against homosexuals is a matter of thinking that God is against homosexuals. Well, I'm going to stand up against it."

[Timber Loftis]

Thanks to Jerr Conner and our esteemed Wookie delegate, my bosses actually thought I was working when I wrote "review 6 linear feet of files" on my timesheet.

[Chewbacca]

Yes, I am jealous that TL gets to log in hours whilsts perusing the forums and proud that he is doing so. Man If only I had net access at work....well when my own store gets off the ground, I will have the luxury.

Anyway on topic....

More freedom bells are ringing:

Link
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Gay Marriage Licenses Coming to Oregon
By THE NEW YORK TIMES

Published: March 3, 2004


Oregon's most populous county will begin issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples today, a county commissioner said last night.

The board of commissioners for Multnomah County, which includes Portland, released a statement yesterday in favor of the policy change after the county attorney, Agnes Sowle, issued an opinion that the licenses would not violate state law.

Commissioner Lisa Naito said that the commissioners would hold a news conference this morning to explain their decision and that the licenses would be issued afterward.

Roey Thorpe, executive director for the gay rights group Basic Rights Oregon, said the group was thrilled.

"Many gay and lesbian couples have been waiting for decades to be seen as equal under the law," Ms. Thorpe said.

Oregon is one of 13 states without laws defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

A spokesman for the state attorney general, Hardy Myers, said it was too early to say what action the state would take, if any.

Commissioner Lonnie Roberts said the decision by others on the four-member board was made "clandestinely," without his knowledge.

"I wasn't informed, and I feel that this is the wrong way to approach this issue," Mr. Roberts said.

[ 03-03-2004, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: [QB]Controlling/Bottling up of feelings, is as unhealthy as excess.

I disagree. Anger, hatred and rage only get worse when you give them free reign. Letting them go, letting them slide, choosing to forgive and move on are the keys to harmony.

I do believe certain psych. studies have proved this. There was a popular psych movt. that advocated free expression of emotions that was found to be quite harmful.

Every major religion aside from Tantric Buddhism advocates controlling or losing desires to an extent. That's a sizeable majority of the world following that life wisdom, so there's got to be something in it. Especially when so many of the worlds problems come from humans failing to do that.

Think about it. No murder, vengance killings, rape, theft, drug addiction, brawls... if we all excercised mind over matter and controlled ourselves, we'd be living in harmony.

True. However, adultery is simpler in that you can just fall back on something else, like your spouse, to avoid it.

You don't have to be married to commit adulterey. And what if your spouse is sick, ill, away for long periods, pregnant or whatever else?

And trust me, I've spent most of my life trying to change. To no avail, and even leading to dangerous paths.

Again, sorry to hear that bro. I do believe you. [img]smile.gif[/img] I do know people that did change. They all had some Jesus help (not necessarily church help), but there you go... rock and roll.

No need to apologize, I was just trying to make a point. Though at least they seem to be becoming more tolerant and less judgemental about homosexuality in general. They don't really know about me yet, though.

That's good to know. Have you any plans to come out?

I had a good friend, a girl, who came out in here late 20's to a devastating response. I can't imagine how hard that must be for you bro. Again, I am grieved that that is the case with you. Were I to have a child, I would love them if they chose to be straight, gay, bi or whatever. There is a difference between love and agreement. There are many whom I love, with whom I disagree.

I'll be praying your family increase their acceptance of you and that at some point, you'll be able to be known in a loving supportive environment. Peace bro.

[ 03-03-2004, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Jerr Conner]

I disagree. Anger, hatred and rage only get worse when you give them free reign. Letting them go, letting them slide, choosing to forgive and move on are the keys to harmony.

I talk mostly from my experiences. Whenever I bottled up my emotions, it lead to depression, and one time even contemplated suicide.

I do believe certain psych. studies have proved this. There was a popular psych movt. that advocated free expression of emotions that was found to be quite harmful.

Yes, some. Others have also proved the opposite, which just leads to the conclusion that one must find a healthy balance between all their emotions, and actions.

Every major religion aside from Tantric Buddhism advocates controlling or losing desires to an extent. That's a sizeable majority of the world following that life wisdom, so there's got to be something in it. Especially when so many of the worlds problems come from humans failing to do that.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that there's got to be something good about something because a vast majority is doing it.

Think about it. No murder, vengance killings, rape, theft, drug addiction, brawls... if we all excercised mind over matter and controlled ourselves, we'd be living in harmony.

Not that simple, IMO. Mind over matter doesn't always work. If it did, then we'd all be healthy human beings (Physically, as well as Mentally).

You don't have to be married to commit adulterey. And what if your spouse is sick, ill, away for long periods, pregnant or whatever else?

Yea, I know, the spouse was just one example I bought up. As far as being sick, ill, away, or pregnant, sex really doesn't matter that much. Romantic feelings do, but romance can pretty much be created easily (At least I don't seem to find a hard time seeing romance in something).

Although a pregnant woman could still have some sex, just not full intercourse.

That's good to know. Have you any plans to come out?

If they ask, or whenever I have a boyfriend who can provide some comfort.

I'll be praying your family increase their acceptance of you and that at some point, you'll be able to be known in a loving supportive environment. Peace bro.

Thanks.

[Jerr Conner]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Thanks to Jerr Conner and our esteemed Wookie delegate, my bosses actually thought I was working when I wrote "review 6 linear feet of files" on my timesheet.

Anytime!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: [QB] quote: I disagree. Anger, hatred and rage only get worse when you give them free reign. Letting them go, letting them slide, choosing to forgive and move on are the keys to harmony.

I talk mostly from my experiences. Whenever I bottled up my emotions, it lead to depression, and one time even contemplated suicide.[/QUOTE]Been there myself too.

Yes, some. Others have also proved the opposite, which just leads to the conclusion that one must find a healthy balance between all their emotions, and actions.

Repressing an emotion is not the same thing as letting it go.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that there's got to be something good about something because a vast majority is doing it.

If one person finds worth in an object, it has, by definition, value. If many people - with all their myriad perceptions and subjective tastes - find worth in an object, it can be objectively called valueable.

It is a life wisdom which is sucessfully followed by many. Problems occur in society when people fail to follow this life wisdom. Therefore "there is something in it".

Mind over matter doesn't always work. If it did, then we'd all be healthy human beings (Physically, as well as Mentally).

The mind is fundamental to achieving mental health. A persons state of mind directly influences their speed of recovery. Secondly, non viral illnesses are being increasingly seen as psychosematic.
Thirdly, in the opinion of the psych professional who wrote "the road less travelled" we humans are more healthy mentally than we should be given the causality. we should all be mentally sicker than we are.

Fourthly, I have seen and experienced "faith healing". Where faith in Jesus directly impacts the health of a person. I do believe I inhabit a universe where, were I to believe in absolute certainty that I could fly in the name of Jesus, I would and could, but accept there is no possibility my mind will achieve that absolute certainty.

My belief in POTENTIAL is tempered by my acceptance of LIMITATION.

I can apply that philosophy to my art however, where I frequently bring into existence, that which is birthed in my mind. Again and again, what I envision comes into being. Mind over matter.

Yea, I know, the spouse was just one example I bought up. As far as being sick, ill, away, or pregnant, sex really doesn't matter that much. Romantic feelings do, but romance can pretty much be created easily (At least I don't seem to find a hard time seeing romance in something).

Nor I.

Romance and love are different things though

If they ask, or whenever I have a boyfriend who can provide some comfort.

Awesome. Love is a wonderful thing.

[Jerr Conner]

Found an interesting URL, but since it's technically religious in nature, if anyone wants to see it, PM me.

[Jerr Conner]

Repressing an emotion is not the same thing as letting it go.

Yea, I know. But when I was talking about how it's good to release your anger sometimes it was in the sense of letting it go. If I hit a pillow, I can let go of whatever is getting me mad. (Though I'm really not the type to stay mad for more than an hour, unless someone really hurt me emotionally)

If one person finds worth in an object, it has, by definition, value. If many people - with all their myriad perceptions and subjective tastes - find worth in an object, it can be objectively called valueable.

I don't think so. What I'm thinking is more of that old cliche: Would you jump off a bridge just because everyone else is?

It is a life wisdom which is sucessfully followed by many. Problems occur in society when people fail to follow this life wisdom. Therefore "there is something in it".

However, there are people who live happy, fulfilling, lives by following their own path, and contribute just as well to society.

The mind is fundamental to achieving mental health. A persons state of mind directly influences their speed of recovery. Secondly, non viral illnesses are being increasingly seen as psychosematic.

Mental health, but still not physical.

Thirdly, in the opinion of the psych professional who wrote "the road less travelled" we humans are more healthy mentally than we should be given the causality. we should all be mentally sicker than we are.

We're probably more healthy because of disassociation. People do it all the time. However, we shouldn't do it too much, for it could lead to mental illnesses as a result (Only my theory).

Fourthly, I have seen and experienced "faith healing". Where faith in Jesus directly impacts the health of a person. I do believe I inhabit a universe where, were I to believe in absolute certainty that I could fly in the name of Jesus, I would and could, but accept there is no possibility my mind will achieve that absolute certainty.

If you believe that mind over matter works, then why accept that there's no possibility that your mind can achieve something? That kind of self-defeats the whole concept.

I can apply that philosophy to my art however, where I frequently bring into existence, that which is birthed in my mind. Again and again, what I envision comes into being. Mind over matter.

However, to bring about your art, you still need some physical means.

Romance and love are different things though

However, people create romance for someone they love. So they do have a relation.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: quote: If one person finds worth in an object, it has, by definition, value. If many people - with all their myriad perceptions and subjective tastes - find worth in an object, it can be objectively called valueable.

I don't think so. What I'm thinking is more of that old cliche: Would you jump off a bridge just because everyone else is?[/QUOTE]But that's not an accurate application of the cliche', Jerr because the majority of society is not "jumping off the bridge". The majority are saying it is socially unacceptable to go around jumping off bridges. You are saying that you have an uncontrollable desire to jump off bridges despite the disapproval of society in general.

Also, the whole cliche' of "bridge jumping" is incorrectly applied. Other than lemmings (and perhaps one other species), society for the most part does NOT endorse or participate in self-destructive behavior just for the sake of "going along with the crowd". It is always the radical few within the society that deviate from the norm and engage in behavior that is either socially unacceptable or unduly risky. The "bridge jumpers" are the minority in any society.

On a more current note, the whole concept of bridge jumping DOES actually lend itself more to "risky" behavior rather than inherently destructive behavior thanks to the popularity of bungee cords. Jumping off bridges is no longer just a "one shot" sport as it used to be.