Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush Pt II

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Anyway, I've come to the conclusion it is not a big deal. Folks can (agree or) disagree with Moore all they want. They can interpret the facts and come to the conclusion that he is ... whatever. They can't, however, force me to agree, no matter how low they sink, how many times they repeat their opinion, or how many times they recycle the same interpretation of the facts.

Chewie, I think you've summed it up for everyone regardless of their position.

[wellard]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: btw, just got in from seeing Farenheit. I really liked it [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Just watched it today with my wife. Top movie! Very entertaining and surprisingly I was shocked at Moore's seemingly well deserved bitch slaps of the Democratic party, reading this forum I thought the film was just a tirade against Bush. It’s amazing that actually seeing the film can help to formulate ones OWN opinion.

By the way, did anyone else have problems / pissed off at the poor sound quality? Or was it just at our local cinema?

[Ronn_Bman]

It must have been your theater's copy because when I saw it, the sound quality seemed fine.

[Oblivion437]

Originally posted by Davros: I think you give Heston way too much credit Oblivion - and Moore too little. Just my take [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Considering Moore's history, against Heston's history (Moore's record for working in a group is a stark contrast to Heston, who is well-known in Hollywood as being excellent to work with, among actors, as well as with directors and crew, whereas Moore was fired from Mother Jones for being a complete asshole and ladder-climber) I don't think so. Some random joker from* Flint, MI showes us a few clips of Cops, some evening news, and says we're all scared to death (even though he admits that there is no real world correlation that gives his theory any merit in less than 15 seconds of his film, he actually debunks himself, unless he had no real point, in which case he's made the most worthless film since Andy Warhol's Empire, or Sleep, unless you feel like staring at a naked man sleeping for five hours at 16fps) of some invisible threat, when a lot of what I know about America and Americans says exactly the opposite. I'm not afraid of Black men. I was in Rochester the other day, and in my travels to a certain part of town, I went through a neighborhood that was wholly black, or nearly so. They seemed like ordinary, every day people to me. I wasn't alarmed at their presence one bit.

Believe me, the rust belt has plenty to be pissed and afraid about. Nobody who lives up here has a certain future, the whole thing is very close to collapse but I remain positive, as do most.

I don't like being patronized, for one thing. I most certainly don't being patronized by a self-hating narcissist who makes money by insulting his own people. I liken it to a Black man doing the Jim Crow routine. No self-respecting Black person, or any self-respecting person for that matter, would do any such thing to demean one's heritage and self.

For another, I don't like invented statistics and out-of-context quotes being thrown at me in the same breath. I don't like being lied to. I don't like people getting awards for criminal behavior**. I don't like being told my heritage is a lie, and that everything I stand for is bullshit, in summary dismissal, and I especially get pissed to high heaven when people give the man accolades for doing that. It's like getting entertained by being condescended and insulted for being you... It's disgusting...

*He's not really from Flint, Michigan, but he continues to claim so to further his phony working class image...

**He accused Mike Nichols of criminal behavior implicitly as he introduced him in the movie, in the same breath as admitting he was acquitted. That he accused someone of a criminal act while knowing full well that he was recognized by the law as innocent is libelous, and very actionable. I'm guessing if Nichols had gone for this angle, his case wouldn't have been thrown out.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: Considering Moore's history, against Heston's history (Moore's record for working in a group is a stark contrast to Heston, who is well-known in Hollywood as being excellent to work with, among actors, as well as with directors and crew,

Er... right.... which is why he appears in the remake of Planet of the Apes, as an Ape, but the only Ape with perfect human teeth.

He was the only actor who refuse to wear the Ape teeth.

That, is "difficult to work with" and putting ego ahead of the desires of the director and make-up specialist.

Go and see for yourself. Rent the video. Check out his teeth, and then tell me he has a good reputation for not messing up scenes.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: I don't like being patronized, for one thing. I most certainly don't being patronized by a self-hating narcissist who makes money by insulting his own people. I liken it to a Black man doing the Jim Crow routine. No self-respecting Black person, or any self-respecting person for that matter, would do any such thing to demean one's heritage and self.

Self-hating? Demeaning his heritage and himself? In what way(s)?
To me he seems to be attempting to critique himself, and his culture. Trying to identify the defining nuances of a society and lifestyle that he believes to be riddled with deep-seated problems. I dunno, I just don't see how this equates to hating himself, or 'his people', or 'his heritage' as you call it.

I can see your narcissist point, he certainly takes on a holier-than-thou tone alot of the time. But that's ok, because so do you, and so do I. No worries, we're allowed to [img]smile.gif[/img]

To be honest, and I'm not attacking you or trying to pick a fight here, but I think that your response to his movie(s) actually provides vital evidence for alot of what he's trying to say. You display an angry, frustrated, even pseudo-violent response to his criticism of certain values, legends and mythology that you obviously hold dear. Why do you think that is? Why are you unable to simply disagree with his opinions, shrug your shoulders, and say 'to each his own' and go about enjoying your life? Why do his opinions have such a strong hold on you? How do you think your beliefs and the way you have been indoctrinated (and we've all been indoctrinated, one way or another) fit into all this?

[ 08-01-2004, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Yorick]

The only thing I'd like to throw in is that anti-Americanism begins in America. I would think a journalist, or artist who criticises their country should do so in a constructive manner, well aware that countless others outside the country view it, often forming their opinions on the nation as a result. Unlike Americans who live in the nation, those outside America have no "wonderful memories" to fall back on, nor patriotism to prevent serious antagonism from developping.

It is a very different thing to live in America. My own views on America changed radically once I moved here, and wasn't relying solely on the images and opinions exported via the US media and films.

Anti-Americanism begins in America.

Were I critiquing my country, I would be very careful about the way I do it.

[The Hierophant]

Fair enough Yorick, but if 'anti-Americanism' is indeed the flipside of the 'unquestioning patriotism' coin, then Moore's work has the added impetus of shedding some light onto the mindsets of those who would employ his work to promote 'anti-American' sentiment.

As an aside, I personally don't believe Nations actually exist in a concrete, universal sense, but that's an entirely different point that I might write my Master's thesis on...

Anyway, why all the fuss? What does the fuss say about us? (hey, that rhymes! [img]smile.gif[/img] ) This is what I find absolutely fascinating. Regardless of Moore's documentary methodology, his personal beliefs, or the personal beliefs of those he criticises, what fundamental factors of contemporary human sociology come to the fore when people discuss the impact of his films? There is so much one can learn from observing a simple bitch-fight [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 08-01-2004, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Oblivion437]

Originally posted by Yorick: Er... right.... which is why he appears in the remake of Planet of the Apes, as an Ape, but the only Ape with perfect human teeth. He was the only actor who refuse to wear the Ape teeth.

You can certainly come up with something better? Moore was fired from Mother Jones for being an asshole, and has a history of being abusive to those who get in his way, especially at the London speaking engagement, where he was pissed because £750 wasn't enough.

That, is "difficult to work with" and putting ego ahead of the desires of the director and make-up specialist. Go and see for yourself. Rent the video. Check out his teeth, and then tell me he has a good reputation for not messing up scenes.

Before you go assuming why he did what he did, understand how he worked on the original Planet of the Apes, with William Wyler in Ben Hur, with Orson Welles on Touch of Evil, and even with Cecil B. DeMille. His history with those men is widely respected in Hollywood. Besides, then, as now, the ape makeup was excrutiatingly uncomfortable...

The only hook is his work with Welles, but Welles was known to be a bit of a jack-ass sometimes, especially considering that Charlton Heston made it possible for Welles to direct the film. He was asked who he wanted to direct it, and he said, and I quote, "Why not Orson Welles? He's amazing." He, who had worked with some of the best directors in film history, said that much of a contemporary film maker. While he said that Welles was a pain in the ass to work with, he didn't regret doing it, and he was still a good artist above all.

Plus, you don't know the whole up-and-down of how Tim Burton operates either. He's known to be very hard to talk to conversationally, let alone get instructions for a shot. The only person who ever successfully entered into conversation with him was Johnny Depp on the set of Ed Wood. You should hear him give interviews. He sounds like his restraint switch is about to break and he's going to turn into a super-fast chatterbox, not that it's a bad thing.

Besides, one event, the lousy remake to the excellent Planet of the Apes, doesn't take away a whole history of excellent work and a good reputation among the most significant film makers of all time.

[ 08-01-2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Oblivion437 ]

[Davros]

Sure Oblivion - your opinion is noted, but it remains just that - your opinion. Well argued of course, but still largely unsubstantiated.