Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush Pt II

[Grojlach]

Boycotts, CD burning bonfires, death threats... If anything, the Dixie Chicks case proved that there's a despicable lynch mob mentality in a large group of people that's only slightly dormant.

[John D Harris]

People have the right to Boycott, & burn what ever CD/personal property they bought they want, just as you have the right to buy or not buy what you want. They probibly think your position is just as despicable as you think their is. SO THE "HALE" WHAT!!!! quityourbitching when you people know damn good and well you people don't buy (BOYCOTT) things you people don't like for what ever reason. Are you people trying to claim you have the SOLE right and are the pocessor of the "truth" and only the way you see it goes? If the dixie twits or anybody for that matter, can't stand the heat stay the "Hale" out of the kitchen, quit whinning and give my ears a rest. I'm sick and tried of hearing people piss'n moun about somebody boycotting something, YET they will boycott things themselves. "Hale" about 45% of them will boycott President Bush in the next election. There are people and groups of people that boycott business/things all the time because they don't like the businesses Hiring polices/enviromental stance/political contributions you name it there's some group boycotting something/somebody for some reason. I'll bet you people $100 you agree with some of the boycotts. Don't give me this theyr'e being mean crap, It's CALLED LIFE, and it's tough, mean and not fair, get over it and adjust.

[Grojlach]

*sigh*
I'm getting really tired of the same old "yeah but they're doing that as well, so bleh to you" argumentation. Two wrongs do not make a right. Your attempts to belittle my opinions are duly noted and well-deservedly ignored. I know you're better than that.

Sorry John, but if there's some artist tomorrow making a rabid pro-Bush/anti-Kerry speech, and for whatever reason, the pro-Kerry crowd decides to boycott that particular artist, organise bonfires to burn merchandise and cds, figuratively burns down the artist in the press and sends out hate mail bordering on death threats, then I will condemn that equally. Yes, you do have freedom of speech. Yes, people have the right to act like a complete idiot, or at least that's the impression I get. But that doesn't mean it makes you any less of a idiot if you use your rights to act like one. If you think you've got a right to boycott someone in a way that goes waaaay beyond deciding not to buy a certain product, then I've got a right to frown deeply upon you. Regardless of the fact of you being left- or rightwing.

And there's a substantial difference between going after a company for dumping toxic waste on the one hand (boycotting because of a criminal act), or devestating a band's career for one single remark on the other (boycotting because they happened to use their freedom of speech to voice an opinion you don't like). However, even then there's a difference between agreeing with the ideology behind a boycott and condoning any act of aggression done in the name of that particular boycott; before you're going to swamp me with examples of "terrorist activity" striking certain companies that were boycotted for whatever reason.

And what is this about 45% boycotting Bush during the next elections? It's as if you're implying that those 45% need the *excuse* of a boycott to not vote for Bush... Despite the fact that they would never have voted for him either way. Does that mean that 45% is boycotting Kerry, then? I feel you're using the term somewhat recklessly here.
If these 45% actually decide to boycott Bush in a way similar to the Dixie Chicks boycott, then you've got a serious civil war on your hands.

[ 07-24-2004, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[The Hierophant]

btw, just got in from seeing Farenheit. I really liked it [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Chewbacca - Your response to Morgeruat completely ignores the fact that this was NOT the first time Ronstadt's comments about Michael Moore were met with a negative reaction from the crowd. The article listed one specific incident where the audience loudly booed her for the comments and basically let their disagreement with her statements be known beyond any shadow of doubt. The article confirmed that her comments were more than a simple "I wish to dedicate this song to Michael Moore" and that they even went beyond just saying "You should all go see his new film". The article didn't list a full transcript of what was said, but it did confirm that she basically gave a commentary endorsing Michael Moore that lasted several minutes. This - in part - explains why the crowds have had such a strong negative reaction to them. The article also indicated that this same type of response had occurred at several of the venues she played on her tour. The opening article regarding this issue pointed out that Ronstadt had made these same comments at every venue on her tour thus far - but it neglected to mention that she had received a very negative reaction to those comments at more than one or two of the venues. At the very least, the article I posted implies that she received a negative reaction at perhaps half of the stops on her tour.

The only reason the reaction in Vegas was so over the top was no doubt due primarily to the amount of alcohol consumed by the crowd. Of course, the fact that Ronstadt had publicly said she hoped to annoy the Aladdin Casino enough to prevent them from inviting her back (a fact ignored by the new group wanting to purchase the casino for the sole purpose of "righting" the non-existent "wrong" done to Ronstadt by the current owner.

But as long as we are discussing the issues of boycotts and other negative reactions to Freedom of Speech and Expression, what are your views regarding Charlie Daniels being told he couldn't sing a particular song at a benefit for 9/11 survivors? Or what about NBC booking Toby Keith for a Fourth of July Special - then cancelling his appearance at the last minute because of the lyrics of his song "Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue" (which incidentally hit #1 on the Country charts that same 4th of July)? In addition to cancelling Toby Keith's appearance, NBC and Peter Jennings went a step further and publicly blamed the non-appearance on Keith, claiming that HE was the one who cancelled the performance without notice. And since you're concerned with the Dixie Chicks, how do you feel about Natalie (the lead singer) publicly starting a fued with Toby Kieth over that same song and even going so far as to wear a T-shirt with the letters "F.U.T.K" on the front for a televised performance at the CMT Awards - where Toby Kieth and the Dixie Chicks were both nominated for "Entertainer of the Year" (BTW, "T.K." won the award that night).

Just wondering if you feel as strongly about the censorship faced by Toby Keith and Charlie Daniels for thier songs?

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Chewbacca - Your response to Morgeruat completely ignores the fact that this was NOT the first time Ronstadt's comments about Michael Moore were met with a negative reaction from the crowd.

How does this justify the destructive response at the Alladin? How does this justify blaming Ronstadt for the destructive and vandalistic actions of those peope? How does this justify expelling Ronstadt from the premises and not even letting her return to her suite?

While I am sure that people booed at other shows, I am equally sure that people cheered as well. Cheering and booing is not the issue here and if I "ignored" it, that is why.

Just wondering if you feel as strongly about the censorship faced by Toby Keith and Charlie Daniels for thier songs?

Why wouldn't I? What exactly have I posted that even remotely implies I would have a double standard with regards to this issue?

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by John D Harris: quityourbitching

Oh, The irony that in the middle of a giant bitch about bitching we are told to quityourbitching. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

(sorry I couldn't resist letting this pass without comment!)

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Grojlach: Boycotts, CD burning bonfires, death threats... If anything, the Dixie Chicks case proved that there's a despicable lynch mob mentality in a large group of people that's only slightly dormant.

Yep, kinda spooky. While I agree witht he previously mentioned sentiment that people have the right to boycott and bonfire thier own property- that doesn't mean I think it is exactly right- especially when such actions are designed to be punitive of a political view.

Attempting to coerce someone into changing or recanting their veiws under threat of punishment works great in a dictorship, but in a free society should be openly discredited when alternatives like free press, debate, and open discussion are available to express counterpoint.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Chewbacca - Your response to Morgeruat completely ignores the fact that this was NOT the first time Ronstadt's comments about Michael Moore were met with a negative reaction from the crowd.

How does this justify the destructive response at the Alladin? How does this justify blaming Ronstadt for the destructive and vandalistic actions of those peope? How does this justify expelling Ronstadt from the premises and not even letting her return to her suite? [/QUOTE]How does the owner justify blaming Ronstadt for the riot-like reaction? Because she was the catalyst that created the negative reaction to begin with. The owner of the Aladdin casino has a performer publicly state that she hopes to eventually annoy him and his casino enough to prevent them from inviting her back before her scheduled performance that evening. Then she makes statements supporting Moore which she knows has received negative reactions at many of her other shows. Since Ronstadt had said she was deliberately trying to "annoy" the Aladdin casino - it's possible that she added a few extra comments that inflamed the crowd more than usual. That's speculation, of course - and Ronstadt may have just been joking about trying to annoy Aladdin - but it is plausible given what we know about the situation from the various articles that have been posted.

Certainly the guests should that actually caused the vandalism should be held responsible and face charges for their actions, but in the heat of the moment, the owner of the Aladdin had to make a decision to control a very dangerous situation as quickly as possible. In that situation - whether fair or unfair - the proper action IS to remove the SOURCE of the problem as quickly as you can (if possible). That could have been followed the next day by an apology on the part of the owner, with an explanation that he did what he felt was necessary to protect the safety of his establishment and the rest of the guests.

Of course, I STILL wonder what the big deal is about him saying he is never going to invite Ronstadt back - since (according to her own words) that is exactly what she had been wanting him to do for some time/ I also still wonder why Ronstadt felt she had to be "annoying" to prevent future invitations to the Aladdin. Why couldn't she just simply say "I refuse to play at your casino anymore, so don't ask me?"

That part of the story keeps nagging at me like an itch I can't scratch.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Just wondering if you feel as strongly about the censorship faced by Toby Keith and Charlie Daniels for thier songs?

Why wouldn't I? What exactly have I posted that even remotely implies I would have a double standard with regards to this issue? [/QUOTE]I didn't say you had a double standard, I asked if you felt as strongly about those cases of censorship as you did about Ronstadt and the Dixie Chicks. Since Toby Keith especially is expressing an attitude you have spoken out against in many different threads, and I was honostly curious how you felt about him being told that NBC was retracting their offer for him to perform because of his new song. Do you feel NBC should have issued a public apology? That is what was demanded by supporters of the Dixie Chicks and Ronstadt. Do you feel that NBC was being ignorant and closed-minded? Again, this was (and apparantly still is) a common sentiment among the supporters of D.C. and Ronstadt. So I just wanted to hear your views on that same situation occurring to an artist expressing an attitude that I know from past posts you disagree with.

I'm not trying to bait you or set you up, and you don't have to answer if you don't want to. It was just an honost question asked to satisfy my curiousity about an incident of censorship that had not been discussed on the forum before.

[Chewbacca]

I think censoring and or bullying people is ridiculous, whether they agree or disagree uniformly with my laundry list of important issues.

Since I am fairly unfamiliar with Toby Keith I did some googling. Going by the details provided it sounds to me like the networks did him wrong.

He was asked by NBC not to perform the song beforehand, this plus it was a nationally televised performance makes any comparison to Linda Ronstadt's Las Vegas club song dedication is a stretch in my opinion.

It seems this was the song that caused NBC and other networks to 'blacklist' him:

Courtesy Of The Red, White And Blue (The Angry American)

American Girls and American Guys We'll always stand up and salute We'll always recognize When we see Old Glory Flying There's a lot of men dead So we can sleep in peace at night When we lay down our head My daddy served in the army Where he lost his right eye But he flew a flag out in our yard Until the day that he died He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me To grow up and live happy In the land of the free. Now this nation that I love Has fallen under attack A mighty sucker punch came flyin' in From somewhere in the back Soon as we could see clearly Through our big black eye Man, we lit up your world Like the 4th of July Hey Uncle Sam Put your name at the top of his list And the Statue of Liberty Started shakin' her fist And the eagle will fly Man, it's gonna be hell When you hear Mother Freedom Start ringin' her bell And it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue Justice will be served And the battle will rage This big dog will fight When you rattle his cage And you'll be sorry that you messed with The U.S. of A. 'Cause we'll put a boot in your ass It's the American way Hey Uncle Sam Put your name at the top of his list And the Statue of Liberty Started shakin' her fist And the eagle will fly Man, it's gonna be hell When you hear Mother Freedom Start ringin' her bell And it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue

So its a song about the sacrifices those in the military make in defense of the country and a dedication of how kick ass they are. I can see the appeal of this song after the 9/11 attacks and while I beleive in acting out of rational justice rather than angry revenge I may disgaree with part of the song's sentiment but I would never support it being censored.

Personally he seems like an alright guy from what I have read. I didn't know he was a Democrat and that he performed with one of my C/W favorites Willie Nelson. It seems we also fully agree that our troops in the warzones deserve our support and respect and that war is a shity situation no matter how you look at it. I'm sure if it came down to digging in to issues we would probably have plenty to disagree on as well, but he doesnt seem to be the type who would call for punitive action to be taken against those who have a different veiwpoint (unless they are bin ladin- loving terrorsts, then he probably wishes them an express bombing courtesy of the red, white, and blue).


Here is abit from a related article:
Source CMT

[excerpt]

Keith also revealed plans for another overseas tour to entertain troops fighting the war in Iraq. Noting that his accomplice will be gonzo rocker and noted firearms enthusiast Ted Nugent, Keith joked, "He's already advanced the ammo." Describing the tour, he said, "It's just a few of us going in. We're taking in a couple of acoustic guitars and just hanging with the guys and taking some goodwill to them."

Keith was asked about his reaction to Willie Nelson's intentions to join Barbra Streisand and Neil Diamond in performing at an upcoming event raising money for presidential hopeful John Kerry.

"You've got to put your politics aside," Keith responded. "Willie understands where I come from, and he understands where I come from. I get accused of banging the war drum, but Willie knows me better than that. He knows we're all about peace. Sometimes [war] is the only answer.

"I never one time have ever, anywhere, said anything about the Iraq war. Some guy in L.A. wrote a column on me one time that said I was trying [capitalizing on the war] to save my career. That's such bullshit. There's a difference between supporting your troops. I'm an American. I can pick and choose when I can make my statements. Nobody should listen to what I have to say, anyway. They ought to worry about themselves.

"I know the troops really well. They come to my shows every night. They're missing arms, they're missing legs, burnt beyond recognition. They show up with a little old tore up, dusty CD cover and say, 'I want you to sign this. At every checkpoint, we stepped out, we saluted and played this song.' If it means that much to them, I don't give a damn what anybody thinks about it.

But as far as Willie's deal with John Kerry goes, people don't know that I'm a registered Democrat. I'm very conservative, to say, the least, but I'm a registered Democrat, and my family has been all along. I have to go from election to election and pick the guy I believe in -- and vote in my own manner. I vote for the guy who gets the job done.

"I don't envy President Bush's job. If he doesn't do anything about terrorism and we stick our head in the sand and something else happens, he's a goat. If he goes over there and it's bloody right now, it looks bad again. He's got a tough job. It's a no-win situation. It always is with war."