The American Constitution

[ElricMorlockin]

Originally posted by Yorick: Why are their opinions and judgements held in greater esteem than people today? Humans are just as imperfect, political and greedy as they have ever been, but also just as idealistic, realistic, honest and freedom loving as they have ever been. [/QB]

Well, I dont know if you chose to read my reply or not, but I think that I have rather fairly touched on this more than once. So, I suppose we have to get silly now? OK.... When was the last time Thomas Jefferson or James Madison wanted to legislate away your personal liberties, that you now enjoy, and are not even a full fledged citizen yet?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Yorick: Timber. Do you presume America will exist forever? I wonder what a Roman in 17AD would have said if asked the same question. Making changes incredibly difficult now, only makes changes later more so.

I do not presume America will exist forever. However, having a Constitution forming the basis for a Representative Republic with term limits and periodic elections is intended to be a legal and governmental structure that allows peaceful revolution from the inside. The people want change, the vote for it. No need to grab the guns. That's the idea, anyway. I *hope* but do not *presume* it will continue to work.

The Constitution is the limit, the "check" on this system, which can be rather majority-driven. However, the Constitution defines the limits of what the government *can* do, and the Bill of Rights and other Amendments define what it *cannot.* There is a lot of gray room in between, and the courts take care of hammering that out.

In short, the changes are NOT difficult. While an Amendment is a high hurdle, the document is general enough to allow most all changes you would want. Plus, we have over 20 Amendments, so it ain't all that hard.

Take your beef with the 2nd Amendment. Well, as I pointed out, that has not limited Chicago from banning ALL handguns. You want a constitutional convention. Why not just lobby your mayor instead? Plus, then YOU would get a chance to get involved, instead of leaving it up to some ethereal THEY to do it for you.

What do these modern constitutions have that we need?? A prohibition on guns? Please. That is controlled by local rule (State, normally) in our country, and it would offend the states if we removed ALL power to the federal government (and threaten liberty as well).

Seriously, what is the US Constitution missing?? If you have a specific nag, like the 4 you listed on the fascism thread, take it to the legislature, don't go rewriting the country because you don't like smoking.

[ 05-27-2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Attalus]

All I can say is that if a two-thirds majority of Americans wanted to amend or change the Constitution, it would be. But, that isn't going to happen, because, whether you like it or not, Yorick, almost all Americans revere our Constitution and do not want it altered. Oh, except the Black Congressional Caucus and its allies.

[ElricMorlockin]

Originally posted by Yorick: Making changes incredibly difficult now, only makes changes later more so. [/QB]

Now this *is* getting silly, so lets again rehash. Yorick believes that the following tenents are outdated, outmoded or whatever other "out" word we want to slap together to describe our highest law.....

1.) Freedom to persue/not persue to religion of your choice.
2.) Freedom to say whatever you wish within reason. You cannot for instance cry "Fire" in a movie theatre.
3.) Freedom to peacefully assemble and dissent.
4.) Freedom to own/maintain/use firearms.
5.) Protection against the army from seizing your home for its use upon whim
and of course without your permission.
6.) Protection against unlawful searches and seizures by the government, police et al.
7.) Protection against trial and imprisonment without a grand jury inquiry, double jeopardy or self incrimination, and of course disenfranchized of their private property without just compensation.
8.) The priveledge of a speedy trial by an impartial jury.
9.) Protection against excessive bail, excessive fines or cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
10.) The enumeration in the Constitution , of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
11.) The freedom from being enslaved.
12.) The freeom from an individual state passing a law abridging your Constitutional Rights
13.) Your freedom to vote for representatives.
14.) Protection for women against sexual discriminaton when it comes to excercising their power to vote and have a say.
15.) The Constitution limits the number of office terms a person can hold as President, thus protecting us all from a seizure of power by one person.
16.)Failure to pay payroll taxes doesnt disenfranchise a person from voting in the future.
17.) Protection against our Representatives making laws for their own compensation taking effect until an election of reps shall have intervened.

There we have it, old fashioned ideas, needing an updating...
So tell me Yorick which of these is "heinous" outdated etc. No Slavery? Being given the right to vote? How about free speech or freeom of religion?

Oh and as far as it being damned near impossible to "ammend" this set of laws, lets have a look on when each was ratified (passed)

I.) 1791 II.) 1791 III.)1791 IV.) 1791 V.) 1791 VI.) 1791 VII.) 1791
VIII.) 1791 IX.) 1791 X.) 1791 XI.) 1795 XII.) 1804 XIII.) 1865
XIV.) 1868 XV.) 1870 XVI.)1913 XVII.) 1913 XVIII.) 1919 XIX.) 1920
XX.) 1933 XXI.)1933 XXII.) 1951 XXIII.)1961 XXIV.) 1964 XXV.) 1967
XXVI.) 1971 XXVII.) 1992

[Yorick]

Originally posted by ElricMorlockin: So tell me Yorick which of these is "heinous" outdated etc. No Slavery? Being given the right to vote? How about free speech or freeom of religion?

The enshrined right of the population of the most powerful Empire ever to carry weapons so powerful that a child can wipe out scores of people in a few seconds.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by ElricMorlockin: So tell me Yorick which of these is "heinous" outdated etc. No Slavery? Being given the right to vote? How about free speech or freeom of religion?

The enshrined right of the population of the most powerful Empire ever to carry weapons so powerful that a child can wipe out scores of people in a few seconds. [/QUOTE]So, you dislike one Amendment of the Bill of Rights and you want to redo the whole of our governmental foundation? You gotta do better than that. There needs be more objectionable, lest you sound like someone advocating using a sledge hammer to swat a fly.

Plus, if you want to toss the underlying lynchpin of government into the cesspool that is the 600+ idiots running the legislature and the warhawks running the administration, you may VERY WELL end up much worse that you started. Not only on every other conceivable issue, but also on the very issue - guns - you so detest.

It is not unlikely that you will end up with a newly-enshrined right for citizens to own guns, so long as they have $2500 for the permits and aren't of Muslim descent. Tossing these decision out into the ether of public opinion, lawyer-esse, and other concerns needed for 2/3 or majority approval in this country will not likely get you the "Constitution According to Yorick" you so desire.

Again, here is my real-world, tangible, less-bonghits-for-all suggestion to you and all who feel like you do:
1. Click Start --> Shutdown --> Shutdown
2. Get up and stretch your legs a bit. Go for a walk...
3. To your local political party (of your choosing) headquarters, the mayor's office, or the city council's office.
4. Take a notebook and record upcoming meetings of city governance that interest you.
5. Go and PARTICIPATE. There usually is a time at the beginning of each local government meeting when "the people" can rise and speak their peace to those who govern them.

6. If you want to participate nationally, get a copy of the Federal Register everyday, wherein all "Notice and Comment" periods for any new proposed regulations MUST BE listed. Find the issues you like, and write in your comments. Some bureauon actually does read these things.

[Yorick]

Timber, you're taking this way too seriously. I find it an interesting comment on human nature that dead men are trusted more than alive ones that's all. Take it for what it is.

[Timber Loftis]

I don't mean to take you more seriously than you intend. Sorry if I seem to.

Perhaps dead men are trusted more because their "legend" has grown in the fog of history. Perhaps, quite realistically, we like their words better because they can't correct us when we misinterpret them.

Truly, though, and seriously or not, a rewritten constitution would be 1,324+ pages long and much too unweildy.

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: On the gun issue. Banning guns is just silly. What would be the point? Stop deaths? Pah, murders are murders, if they dont have a gun they will use a knife. Anything can be used as a lethal weapon. Like it or not, a vast majority of americans enjoy guns. They enjoy hunting with them, they enjoy just shoting them. If you take guns away from people then are taking a little bit of freedom from them.

However with a knife it is possible to disarm the person with a sheet or pillow. Much more difficult to disarm someone with a gun. Plus you have a chance to escape outrun a person with a knife, with a gun outrunning and dodging become very tricky.

Originally posted by Yorick: Hope you don't mind, but I'm stealing these for future use.

My point is they were once live people who wrote a "gospel" of sorts, which has forced countless others to live by it's decrees.


One of your big mistakes is shown here Yorick...NOT forced people to live under it....created such an epic and unprecidented thing that people give their lives trying to GET here. People every day yearn to come here and live in this society as it was created...not as it will one day turn out.

Why are their opinions and judgements held in greater esteem than people today? Humans are just as imperfect, political and greedy as they have ever been, but also just as idealistic, realistic, honest and freedom loving as they have ever been.


I may be naive but I believe that they actually had a sense of honor and duty, that they unlike so many today lived by their beliefs and wanted to create something truely momentous...today....well I wouldn't give you half a washington or 1/4 of a Jefferson for a Bushel of US Senators or a Peck of Congress persons.
[/QB][/QUOTE]