Should you smack your children?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: Sorry Yorick, I have spent quite enough time explainging my side of the issue, im not going to try and revisit the whole thing. All Ill say is that in MY experience with the children I interact with, "talk" just doesnt cut it.. They understand spanking far better than a logical disertation.

Well of course they do. You've USED spanking as a punishment. They have a yardstick by which they measure how angry you are. Words become useless only when physical punishment is used.

It's all relative.

How many times have you seen a woman at a supermarket counter screaming her head off at a child, who's simply ignoring her?

Why?

Odds are the woman does it all the time. The child is unaffected by the usual.

Think about it. If you never raised your voice at your children. Never. If you were full of love and positivity, and rewarded their good actions as often as possible. How effective would a sharp tone be then? A shout? It would be UNUSUAL. An escalation. Big trouble.

It's all relative.

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by MagiK: This has actually been the way of things as far back as the written history of man can trace, the modern fantasy that physical punishment was damaging didnt really come to lite till the 1960's and we see how well mannered the worlds children have become.

Uh, Magik, that's the way you see it, not a proven fact. I don't think physical punishment is the point. Seems to me that children, as they are human hence curious people,and in learning phase, do naturally test for limits. If they don't get a firm set of boundaries adapted to their age, assorted with the freedom to grow inside these boundaries, they will grow disoriented. So, to me, a fundamental duty of parents is to give their children a firm set of, what's the English word, landmarks ? so they grow to become free and responsible adults.

Now, to say that physical punishment is the best way to set those firm boundaries is another matter entirely. Fear is not an incentive to learning, ask any good teacher, he or she will tell you that.

As I actually am a mother, and coming from a family of teachers, I believe I know a little about what I'm talking about. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: MagiK, that line of thinking supports the noncorporal punishment argument. For the punishment to work, it is assumed the child has the logical powers to associate the pain with the misdemeanor. However, the stronger, simpler logic is that the pain is associated with the inflicter. This of course assumes that beating a child is a punishment, and not gratituous release of frustration on behalf of the parent.

Sorry Yorick, I have spent quite enough time explainging my side of the issue, im not going to try and revisit the whole thing. All Ill say is that in MY experience with the children I interact with, "talk" just doesnt cut it.. They understand spanking far better than a logical disertation.[/QUOTE]What logical dissertation? If you send a child to their room, or restrict privileges as punishment there's no need for a lengthy discussion on what's gone on, any more than if you smack a child for punishment. One does not result in fear and humiliation though.

I agree, Yorick. Punishment is wholey about making connections between actions and consequences. A child is just a capable of seeing that they have been sent to their room for their action as they are seeing that they have been smacked for an action.

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Sorry Yorick, I have spent quite enough time explainging my side of the issue, im not going to try and revisit the whole thing. All Ill say is that in MY experience with the children I interact with, "talk" just doesnt cut it.. They understand spanking far better than a logical disertation.

Well of course they do. You've USED spanking as a punishment. They have a yardstick by which they measure how angry you are. Words become useless only when physical punishment is used.

It's all relative.

How many times have you seen a woman at a supermarket counter screaming her head off at a child, who's simply ignoring her?

Why?

Odds are the woman does it all the time. The child is unaffected by the usual.

Think about it. If you never raised your voice at your children. Never. If you were full of love and positivity, and rewarded their good actions as often as possible. How effective would a sharp tone be then? A shout? It would be UNUSUAL. An escalation. Big trouble.

It's all relative.[/QUOTE]Yorik you simply are NOT reading my posts. I make it a habbit NEVER to spank my children while I am angry, thus they do NOT equate spanking with anger, what they equate it with is going way beyond the line that they know they should not cross. I havent had to spank in several years now, and My kids have become quite well behaved and happy kids, they know the rules and they know the punishments.

As for never raising your voice around the kids thinking they will be all happiness and love..think again, I dare you to spend two weeks with a two year old.

[ 05-17-2002, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Ladyzekke]

I still think using pain to control a human being only tells said child that the bigger and stronger ones have all the power, doesn't mean that the child will truly comprehend why what he/she did was wrong. Pain has a way of "distracting" one's mind away from everything but said pain, and fear too. Later on in years, once the child grows up and is bigger and stronger, he/she might use pain to get what they want as well. Depends on the child of course, but it IS a possibility that should be kept in mind.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by MagiK: In that case My children are just geniuses and understand the spanking idea quite well. You can assail my logic by ignoring every other post made and then pick things apart on paper, but in real life, my methods work...results oriented goals work for me. Im not going to make a full repeat of previous posts every time someone makes the same old argument that was covered 5 pages ago...or 6 or 7 or 9 Oh and Logic does NOT equate to understanding. Humans of all ages are irrational beings.

Well actually, I just picked out this bit because I feel it is a flaw in the argument, you said that they were not logical enough to understand a more subtle approach, so I said that then how do they then see the logic of you hitting them making it justified, I'm sure most kids at the time won't think that so, and then in this post you turn around and say that everyone is irrational, so how do you see the logic of spanking and they dont???
Just because you're way may work, doesn't mean you have to do it that way, and I think personally that it isn't the best.

Thinking about some of the "theoretical" experts on child rearing here, reminds me of some of the teen mothers on Jerry Springer, how they talk about loving their baby and how they are more mature than any of the adults in their life and that at 13 they are quite qualified to raise their baby.....scary to think that so many children think they are ready to be parents.

Honestly and truely not trying to be mean here but I think people should have to be at least 30 and have had a rigourous apprenticeship before being allowed to bear children.

[Yorick]

I should have pointed out, that a key part of humanity is normalising our situation. It's a survival mechanism.

We see it macro, regarding societies and natural hazards. I can't comprehend people choosing to live in an earthquake zone. Others get freaked by all Australias killing wildlife. Others are freaked out by a city, with it's crime.

Yet the residents in the concerned areas normalise their environment. A victim of spousal abuse can, and does put up with what others would immediately reject. For years. The abnormal becomes normal. "How it is". We survive.

So a child is going to normalise their situation. The key to punishing is diversity, not aggression, nor violence. If I child is always sent to their room, it loses impact. If a child is always docked pocket money, so that they never have any, or are in debt, again, the punishment loses effect.

By losing effect I mean, presenting a long term behavioural shift. A smack may in the short term seem to work, by initiating change, yet these are mere survival instincts. Cmprehensive behavioural change is a result of choice, not instinct.

Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: In that case My children are just geniuses and understand the spanking idea quite well. You can assail my logic by ignoring every other post made and then pick things apart on paper, but in real life, my methods work...results oriented goals work for me. Im not going to make a full repeat of previous posts every time someone makes the same old argument that was covered 5 pages ago...or 6 or 7 or 9 Oh and Logic does NOT equate to understanding. Humans of all ages are irrational beings.

Well actually, I just picked out this bit because I feel it is a flaw in the argument, you said that they were not logical enough to understand a more subtle approach, so I said that then how do they then see the logic of you hitting them making it justified, I'm sure most kids at the time won't think that so, and then in this post you turn around and say that everyone is irrational, so how do you see the logic of spanking and they dont???
Just because you're way may work, doesn't mean you have to do it that way, and I think personally that it isn't the best.[/QUOTE]I never said Logic was the key to spanking dude. I was just trying to convey the fact that any one who thinks they can "talk" their 3 year old out of chewing on the lamp cord or talk them out of sticking a fork in their little sister just doesnt have a grasp of what raising a kid is like, they do not want to discuss their behaviour the only thing that really stays in their minds are the strongest natural teaching sensations. good taste, bad taste, pain, pleasure
the word NO has little meaning for children until they associate it with a well remembered sensation. Let me know the next time you raise a child never having raised your voice and only having reasoned with them to the age of 3 and let me know how it works out.

[The.Relic]

Yorick, I have to say that it has been my good fortune that my relationship with Brittany and Bryce has worked out that way. I never raise my voice to them in anger, nor do I ever even broach a subject when I am upset, I tell them we will talk about it when I am in the right frame of mind. That in itself provokes a response in them which makes them very unhappy and they come to me asking "Daddy, are you mad at me/us"? Once I have cooled down if I do get angry, I am able to tell them that, "No, I am not angry with you, my anger was with myself because my own emotions were not under proper control and I wasn't thinking as clearly as I should have been, but I am disappointed and perhaps even a little frustrated". That in itself is enough to make them consider their own behavior when inappropriate and we talk it out from there. My children are treasures and I see trememdous growth in them. The seek to resolve their own problems calmly and thoughtfully and rarely ever resort to violence. It also ehnances their self worth, and neither of them will seek out or tolerate peers who are violent or abusive. They want to have healthy lives as much as I want them to have them. . I am so blessed.