Treatment of prisoners (yep, those ones...)

[Rikard_OHF]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel:
In general- Why did most people immediately think Konfuzed and Zany was making a reference to the Americans?? When I read it I took it a totally different way, sounds like you're all being a bit defensive.

---

Why I thank you for Restoring my trust in my writing skills (Konfuzed [img]smile.gif[/img] )

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ezekial:

MagiK, could you clarify what you mean by the statement about Ireland? (ie. do you feel the IRA aren't terrorists?) Sorry, I'm not attacking you, it's just a point I would like cleared up for personal reasons...and I know it is a bit off topic.

---

What I meant by the coment was that for most of the world the terrorist activities are being sponsored and are coming out of the middle east. Ireland has a terrorism problem and I do acknowledge this, but I wanted to specify that I was not commenting on those issues at this point. My comments in general have only been regarding the middle east problems.

Hope that clears things up...and no I took no offense, I don't mind at all when someone disagrees with me...what I do get riled about is when people refuse to acknowledge what I see as the inherently superior position of the western civilizations in regards to human rights, and the value of human life. One of the major things often overlooked when people are dissing the west is that to date, Western Civilization affords the most people with the best chance for a decent, prosperous life. Its not perfect but it beats what has gone before.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:

Why I thank you for Restoring my trust in my writing skills (Konfuzed [img]smile.gif[/img] )

---

T'was but a lacking in my poor american public schooling mayhap...then again, maybe not [img]smile.gif[/img]

Pax

[Ezekial]

Cheers MagiK, thanx for clearing that up for me [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Nachtrafe]

All right Mel...I apologize for ranting. I know better and I'm sorry. Just for the record though...I DO NOT!! apologize for my opinions. And, if I was being defensive, I think I've been given adequate cause(although generally not by you dear elflet...I really am sorry for ranting at you).

You know though...I constantly hear about how being patriotic "baffles non-americans, who have no national pride." Well, aside from the obvious untruth of the quoted part(see Micah's post above(page 7) for examples), that stance is just as baffling to us Americans. What is so *WRONG* with being patriotic? Why is it so evil to be proud of who you are and what you believe in? Americans are a thousand times more critical of our government than a foreigner could *EVER* be. We hold those in public office under the microscope 24/7. And yet, we still believe in our nation, we still believe that, in general, it means well, we still feel our hearts stir with pride when our flag flies. And yet, we haven't launched into mass genocide, or acts of barbarism, or tried to take over the world(and lets face it, if the US really put its mind to it, the Stars and Stripes would fly the world over rather quickly). We have done none of those things, despite this 'wrong-headed, hideous, jingoistic(etc etc etc)" PATRIOTISM!! So, again, I ask...what is soooooo awful about national pride?

Just a side note:

quote:

---

"If one Idiot comes with great talkin skills"

LOL, you mean like... Bush? [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

---

Unfortunately for your theory, President Bush is a very intelligent man with adequate 'talkin' skills. And yet, his overall approval rating is 80%+ Funny, that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hmmm...I agree Magik...An 'Emasculation of the American Male' thread might be interesting. Unfortunately, it'd probably get shot down by the PC police as 'brainless testosterone driven chest-thumping'. Such is the level of wimp-ness that has invaded the hearts(and loins) of Americans.

ROFL!!! Magik...Sheep are not 'fine animals'. They are dirty, smelly, mean, and dumber than a bag of rocks. [img]smile.gif[/img] I grew up around the annoying wolly 'range maggots'. However...They sure taste yummy when baked in a garlic sauce. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[/)eathKiller]

ITotally agree with you man! But have you tried tartar Sauce on em? Thats how the Greeks used to eat em' i heard... oh and hey my Server is working again so no more crappy HTML magic like you see here [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Nachtrafe]

[img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] @ /)eathkiller

Hmmm...mutton with tartar sauce. Dont know about that. But hey...I'm willing to try just about anything once.

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

[Pangur Ban]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nachtrafe:


You know though...I constantly hear about how being patriotic "baffles non-americans, who have no national pride." Well, aside from the obvious untruth of the quoted part(see Micah's post above(page 7) for examples), that stance is just as baffling to us Americans. What is so *WRONG* with being patriotic? Why is it so evil to be proud of who you are and what you believe in? Americans are a thousand times more critical of our government than a foreigner could *EVER* be. We hold those in public office under the microscope 24/7. And yet, we still believe in our nation, we still believe that, in general, it means well, we still feel our hearts stir with pride when our flag flies. And yet, we haven't launched into mass genocide, or acts of barbarism, or tried to take over the world(and lets face it, if the US really put its mind to it, the Stars and Stripes would fly the world over rather quickly). We have done none of those things, despite this 'wrong-headed, hideous, jingoistic(etc etc etc)" PATRIOTISM!! So, again, I ask...what is soooooo awful about national pride?

[img]smile.gif[/img]

---

To add my 2c worth.

There is *NOTHING* wrong with national pride !!!


However, like just about any other human belief it can taken to extremes. When national pride is used as a cover for outrageous arrogance, or the humiliation or belittlement of others, then IMHO, it crosses the line.

I clarify my point ...

"I am American( or Australian, or ******* ) and I am proud !!"
No problem.
"I am ********* therefore I have the moral high ground"
Big problem.
"A citizen of my country is worth a million citizens from other countries ..."
Huge problem.

I was watching TV a few years ago, and saw a US official state:
" I believe God has a special place in his heart for the people of the United States of America ... " Even today, I still find that statement offensive - that believers in God in other countries have some implied lesser status with God just because they are not from America?

Don't get me wrong. I am *NOT* USA bashing, just giving an example. If any person from *any* country, including my own, made similar claims I would be just as offended. And if I knew such examples from other countries I would quote them as well.

Everyone has the right to proud to be a citizen of their country.

Pang [img]graemlins/cat3.gif[/img]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangur Ban:

I was watching TV a few years ago, and saw a US official state:
" I believe God has a special place in his heart for the people of the United States of America ... " Even today, I still find that statement offensive - that believers in God in other countries have some implied lesser status with God just because they are not from America?

Everyone has the right to proud to be a citizen of their country.

Pang [img]graemlins/cat3.gif[/img]

---

By god! that does sound just a trifle smug and arrogant doesn't it?

Well when you realize that the people who first started colonizing here were doing so, primarily for religious freedom, it isn't very hard to see where that form of thought might come from.

Traditionally The American people see themselves as ..... blessed with many things that are not present in other countries and attribute this to being favored....Im not saying its right to think that way, just saying it is easy to see where the arrogance comes from.

I didnt take any offense at what you said, because it is true, we Americans have this "superiority complex" we do believe that we are the moral standard by wich everyone should be judged....not very realistic but there ya have it.

[Melusine]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nachtrafe:

You know though...I constantly hear about how being patriotic "baffles non-americans, who have no national pride." Well, aside from the obvious untruth of the quoted part(see Micah's post above(page 7) for examples), that stance is just as baffling to us Americans. What is so *WRONG* with being patriotic? Why is it so evil to be proud of who you are and what you believe in? Americans are a thousand times more critical of our government than a foreigner could *EVER* be. We hold those in public office under the microscope 24/7. And yet, we still believe in our nation, we still believe that, in general, it means well, we still feel our hearts stir with pride when our flag flies. And yet, we haven't launched into mass genocide, or acts of barbarism, or tried to take over the world(and lets face it, if the US really put its mind to it, the Stars and Stripes would fly the world over rather quickly). We have done none of those things, despite this 'wrong-headed, hideous, jingoistic(etc etc etc)" PATRIOTISM!! So, again, I ask...what is soooooo awful about national pride?

Unfortunately for your theory, President Bush is a very intelligent man with adequate 'talkin' skills. And yet, his overall approval rating is 80%+ Funny, that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

---

Jim, hon [img]smile.gif[/img] read my post!!!
I am actually defending your national pride, but if *I* can be understanding about a phenomenon that seems alien to me, please extend the same courtesy to me. [img]smile.gif[/img]
I can understand why Americans feel so much national pride (in fact I've been one of the few non-Americans defending you w/r/t this matter), so please, could youat least try and understand that Europeans/non-Americans feel differently? Of course there are many people here who like their countries, but in most cases it doesn't compare to American patriotism. That's fine. Please, don't you see how weird it is that whenever the subject is as much as brought up, the Americans in this thread immediately pipe up "well what's so evil about patriotism??" HELL, people, if I thought it was evil, I wouldn't be defending you guys! Again, read my post. All I am trying to do is point out that it's simply a cultural difference. Most of us won't ever completely agree about it, but we can understand WHY we feel differently about it. I for one think I can.

About Bush, I know, I know. It was a joke
I mean, when Rikard warned against being swayed by this smooth talking leader, I hardly would think of Bush (I imagine his public imago would have been different if the 9/11 events had not taken place). Anyway I wasn't saying he was a bad speaker, but he's hardly the charismatic, hypnotic Mr Crowd Control figure Hitler could be. [img]smile.gif[/img]