Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush Pt II

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: What happened to "I paid admission to hear you sing and to be entertained, not to be enlightened as to your political point of view?" She, of course, can believe whatever she likes, but just as a football player would be booed for stopping the game and dedicating a goal, she deserved to be booed.

That's not a very good analogy, though - many artists chat with the audience in between their songs, whether to establish a link with their public or simply to pass the time to allow band members (and herself) to tune their instruments. She's not actually stopping her performance to dedicate a song to someone, not really; it's simply part of her act. 'sides, She played the very same song during her entire tour, continuously dedicating it to Michael Moore; it's not as if she'd never done it before.

She said Moore "is someone who cares about this country deeply and is trying to help." Ronstadt has been making the dedication at each of her engagements since she began a national tour earlier this summer, but it has never sparked such a reaction.

If you really feel strongly about Ronstadt's opinions, a simple "boo" would have sufficed (or some fierce whistling), at most for the duration of the intermezzo - it's not that when an artist interacts with her audience, there's no chance the audience won't respond to it. But come on, to tear off posters and demand your money back for a performance that was pretty much at its end either way (see additional source at the bottom of my post) is just plain childish behaviour, in my opinion. If you've enjoyed the first 90% of a concert and then decide to get your money back and throw a tantrum because of a single (in my opinion relatively harmless) remark that irked you, then you've probably got a very thin skin, and an certain level of insecurity regarding your opinions to begin with.

Additional source with more extensive information:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/drudged/517195568.html

[ 07-20-2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Ronn_Bman]

The analogy with the football player works fine. [img]smile.gif[/img] It is not an exact match, but it isn't suppose to be. It should just convey the point. In fact, in American football 'EndZone' celebrations are banned because they are a distraction, they slow gameplay, and are occassionally embarrassing to those footing(no pun intended) the bill.

As I said in my last post, there are hooligans on all sides of the issue and these people obviously acted like hooligans.

As to the artist 'chatting' with the crowd during the concert, of course that is true, but you have to know your audience. This is Linda Ronstadt, not Joni Mitchell or Neil Young.

Maybe people shouldn't be so thin skinned, and maybe Linda Ronstadt shouldn't wear her politics on her sleeve before a paying crowd who is interested in entertainment and not politics... or maybe.... BOTH.

[ 07-20-2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Grojlach: I guess tolerance of someone else's views and freedom of expression doesn't work with drunk country fans (and they seemed to have left their sense of humor in their other pair of pants ). What happened to "you have the right to voice your opinions, and I have the right to not listen"? And how long before she'll be boycotted, Dixie Chick-style? Casino ejects Ronstadt over 'Fahrenheit' praise LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- Singer Linda Ronstadt was thrown out of the Aladdin casino in Las Vegas on the weekend after dedicating a song to liberal film maker Michael Moore and his movie "Fahrenheit 9/11," a casino spokeswoman said Monday. Ronstadt, who had been hired for a one-show engagement Saturday night at the Las Vegas Strip casino, dedicated a performance of "Desperado" to Moore and his controversial documentary, which criticizes President Bush and the U.S.-led war in Iraq. That dedication angered some Aladdin guests who spilled drinks, tore down posters and demanded their money back, said casino spokeswoman Sara Gorgon. "We had quite a scene at the box office," she said. About a quarter of the 4,500 people in the audience got up and left before the performance had finished, Gorgon said. Before her concert, Ronstadt had laughingly told the Las Vegas Review-Journal that she hoped that the casino performance would be her last. "I keep hoping that if I'm annoying enough to them, they won't hire me back," she was quoted as telling the newspaper. A statement issued by the Aladdin said Ronstadt had been "escorted out of the hotel" just after her performance and said the performer would "not be welcomed back." "Ms. Ronstadt was hired to entertain the guests of the Aladdin, not to espouse political views," the casino said. Ronstadt was not immediately available for comment. http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Musi...eut/index.html

Sounds to me like they did exactly what you are trying to say they didn't do Groj. They let her speak and they choose not to listen. I don't argee with any vandelism, tearing down of property that doesn't belong to you, or spilling of drinks on property that doesn't belong to you. The concert hall does belong to the casino so they get to decide who they wish to preform and why. If anybody doen't like it buy the concert hall from the casino or buy your own concert hall and book the dittie tiwitts, whoo-pie, and linda wrongstant to preform for you.

[ 07-20-2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[Grojlach]

Gah, I had a wholly different situation in mind; you and your American football.

And I agree that there are two parties to blame here, but it's remarkable that the casino seems to place the blame entirely on Ronstadt's shoulders. While I agree that her words were the trigger to these events, the audience was probably already incited and on edge for completely unrelated matters, looking for an excuse to start a riot - else they wouldn't have responded like that. And I stand by the opinion that the negative response was more than a little excessive.

[ 07-20-2004, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Sounds to me like they did exactly what you are trying to say they didn't do Groj. They let her speak and they choose not to listen. I don't argee with any vandelism, tearing down of property that doesn't belong to you, or spilling of drinks on property that doesn't belong to you. The concert hall does belong to the casino so they get to decide who they wish to preform and why. If anybody doen't like it buy the concert hall from the casino or buy your own concert hall and book the dittie tiwitts, whoopie, and linda wrongstant to preform for you.

There's a substantial difference between simply deciding not to listen and vandalising property, though.
And they could ban her for all I care, though it would be in the casino's best interest to put a number of those throwing a tantrum on a blacklist just the same. I don't think anyone could keep a straight face and claim that the audience's response to Ronstadt's remarks was in any way within acceptable and expectable parameters.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: Sounds to me like they did exactly what you are trying to say they didn't do Groj. They let her speak and they choose not to listen. I don't argee with any vandelism, tearing down of property that doesn't belong to you, or spilling of drinks on property that doesn't belong to you. The concert hall does belong to the casino so they get to decide who they wish to preform and why. If anybody doen't like it buy the concert hall from the casino or buy your own concert hall and book the dittie tiwitts, whoopie, and linda wrongstant to preform for you.

There's a substantial difference between simply deciding not to listen and vandalising property, though.
And they could ban her for all I care, though it would be in the casino's best interest to put a number of those throwing a tantrum on a blacklist just the same. I don't think anyone could keep a straight face and claim that the audience's response to Ronstadt's remarks was in any way within acceptable and expectable parameters. [/QUOTE]Agreed as I stated in my post that you quoted. But your opening remark was not to the fact of vandelism it was to the fact of "letting somebody speak their position and choosing not to listen" vandelism is not the same thing as that. So which are you upset at the vandelism or the booing and walking out?

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Agreed as I stated in my post that you quoted. But your opening remark was not to the fact of vandelism it was to the fact of "letting somebody speak their position and choosing not to listen" vandelism is not the same thing as that. So which are you upset at the vandelism or the booing and walking out?

Oh, I don't mind people booing (for a short period of time) or walking out, as long as they don't actually ruin the performance; for every agitated booer in the audience there was most likely a dedicated fan there just the same who couldn't care less about Ronstadt's political views. Regardless of the question whether the audience's response was excessive and ridiculous or not, if you don't like it, simply leave. Just don't ruin it for others.

It's the way they responded I disagree with. That includes the notion of asking your money back (especially by those who also happened to vent their frustration in a vandalistic manner), regarding the timing of the comment (which was close to the end of the performance), the "gravity" of what she said (which was pro-Moore at best, though if you regard the song text of the Eagles cover "Desperado", you might even start to wonder about that ) and the other, more hooligan-inspired ways in which part of the audience responded.

[ 07-20-2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Grojlach: I guess tolerance of someone else's views and freedom of expression doesn't work with drunk country fans (and they seemed to have left their sense of humor in their other pair of pants ). What happened to "you have the right to voice your opinions, and I have the right to not listen"? And how long before she'll be boycotted, Dixie Chick-style?

First of all, Groj, I think you're comment criticizing "drunk country fans" is a mighty broad brush to be painting with. I agree - in part - with Ronn and John. These fans paid to hear Linda Rondstat perform her songs and they have a right to NOT have politics interjected into the performance.

I also agree - in part - with you that the statement itself was relatively harmless overall and by no means justifies the reaction some of the fans exhibited. I would also agree that the fans that did the actual vandalism should be blacklisted from the casino permanently. I don't know that the casino should "blackball" Linda Rondstat, but she does need to know her audience if she is going to interject personal political views into her performance. I honostly don't care if Linda supports Michael Moore or not and I fully support her right to support Michael Moore if she wants to. I don't mind her dedicating the song "Desperado" to him (in fact, I guess it's rather appropriate - at least in her view). I wouldn't have been bothered by the statement despite my own well-documented dislike for Moore. (Which I admit makes me wonder if there is more to the story that is not being told. I find it very difficult to believe that such a simple act as dedicating a song prompted such an over-the-top reaction, regardless of the amount of alcohol consumed in the process).

One other snippet from the article I found interesting that hasn't been mentioned yet was Ronstadts' own admission that she didn't like performing there and had tried to be "annoying enough" that the owners would quit inviting her to perform there. Excuse me? If Linda R. doesn't like performing there, WHY doesn't she just say "No, I don't want to come to your casino to play?" And the fact that she admitted to deliberatly trying to "annoy" the owners makes me suspect there may have been more to her statement than the article is disclosing.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: First of all, Groj, I think you're comment criticizing "drunk country fans" is a mighty broad brush to be painting with. I agree - in part - with Ronn and John. These fans paid to hear Linda Rondstat perform her songs and they have a right to NOT have politics interjected into the performance..

Sorry if the "drunk country fans" comment offended you in any way (which was loosely, though naively inspired by Ronstadt being a country singer attracting country fans, and the feeling that you'd have to be pretty drunk to respond in the way the audience did), I realise it might not even be accurate, for several reasons; my apologies for that. For all we know it was a group of drunk teenagers/students, looking for a good time in Vegas, and inciting one another to go and visit a country concert, literally waiting for an excuse to stir up trouble. While bordering on a mere theory, it might at least explain the thin-skinned nature of the audience - and while they probably wouldn't make up a quarter to half of the audience (the part reportedly causing trouble or walking away), mob mentality would probably take care the rest.
And as to the political comments during concerts, I guess it's not all that common to certain audiences, even though I'm personally used to it. If you're truely going for the music, I'd reckon you could care less about the small talk included during a concert - I personally often take (often overly simplistic) political statements for granted. They have to be truely controversial or downright disgusting to let them ruin my enjoyment, or, in this case, even inspire me to vandalise someone else's property and start demanding refunds. I do feel that this wasn't the case with this concert, however. It's not as if she compared Bush to Hitler, or started spreading "vote for Kerry" flyers, or anything.

One other snippet from the article I found interesting that hasn't been mentioned yet was Ronstadts' own admission that she didn't like performing there and had tried to be "annoying enough" that the owners would quit inviting her to perform there. Excuse me? If Linda R. doesn't like performing there, WHY doesn't she just say "No, I don't want to come to your casino to play?" And the fact that she admitted to deliberatly trying to "annoy" the owners makes me suspect there may have been more to her statement than the article is disclosing.

Sorry for not giving it proper attention before, but didn't really take that part as vital to the event itself - in my opinion, it's more of an extra explanation as to why the casino is so critical of Ronstadt and so eager to blacklist her, rather than a theory as to why she included the dedication speech.
I've seen a similar theory posed on the forum where I'd originally seen this article, but the second article I posted and quoted from *did* mention that she'd done the dedicating part during her entire tour so far.

Ronstadt has been making the dedication at each of her engagements since she began a national tour earlier this summer, but it has never sparked such a reaction.

If she was deliberately sabotaging her performance, then she probably would have tried to rub her political views in her audience's faces from the beginning; though neither of the two articles seemed to mention other incidents during the concert that led to this mess. The impression I got was that her little dedication speech (which, according to someone on that other forum, included calling Moore a patriot and encouraging people to go and see F9/11; and though I haven't found a source for that yet, it sounds plausible) was all that sparked the anger in part of her audience.

[ 07-20-2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Grojlach: Sorry if the "drunk country fans" comment offended you in any way (which was loosely, though naively inspired by Ronstadt being a country singer attracting country fans, and the feeling that you'd have to be pretty drunk to respond in the way the audience did), I realise it might not even be accurate, for several reasons; my apologies for that.

No problem. I don't know if Linda Ronstadt is still considered a "country artist" or not, but either way, I didn't take any real offense at the statement - just trying to avoid overly broad generalizations.

Originally posted by Grojlach: If she was deliberately sabotaging her performance, then she probably would have tried to rub her political views in her audience's faces from the beginning; though neither of the two articles seemed to mention other incidents during the concert that led to this mess. The impression I got was that her little dedication speech (which, according to someone on that other forum, included calling Moore a patriot and encouraging people to go and see F9/11; and though I haven't found a source for that yet, it sounds plausible) was all that sparked the anger in part of her audience.

I did a Google Search and got about 4-5 articles on the first go. I haven't had a chance to actually read any of them yet, but I will browse them later to see if any of them give a different account.

I do agree completely with you that the fan reaction was entirely over-the-top if the comment is as innocent as it has been reported (and so far, that does seem to be the case). As I said before, I wouldn't have been offended by the remark and probably would have just blown it off myself - and I certainly am not a fan of Mr. Moore's. Of course, had she dedicated the song to President Bush, she probably would have gotten a standing ovation - so the criticisms about interjecting politics into performances (my own included) ring of a double standard. I think the audience would have been well within their rights to loudly "Boo" Ronstadt and to even walk out if they felt so inclined. If they were upset enough to walk out, I don't think it is entirely unreasonable to ask for a refund (although that it is also a bit hypocritical since they got to enjoy the majority of the show before walking out - a bit like eating all of your food at a restaurant, then refusing to pay because you didn't like the food) - but there is NO justification for the vandalism. Even if Ronstadt had given a 15 minute rant about Bush and finished by yelling "Moore in O4", that still wouldn't have justified the vandalism.