Philosophy

[Bozos of Bones]

MY tummy feels funny...
Maybe because I laughed soooo hard!?

He is still wrong. It's a fact.

[CerebroDragon]

Originally posted by Bozos of Bones: You missed the point. It is an old Zen question, before they knew such stuff. I started the thread here so we can all give a bunch of BS like the scientists in the old, old days did and get away with it. It is not intended as a spam site, but as a place to relax. Kinda like Cloudy's Cafe, but emphasized on creativity and the ability to BS to people. Play along, kids.

Aye, it is an old Zen question, but it is more accurately represented in the quote "What is the sound of one hand clapping? than in the thread context, methinks!

The thread question about the tree is an analogy used by alot of thinkers and philosophers as a way of thinking about the loony philosophy of immaterialism by an Irish clergy man, Mr George Berekeley. Basically, Berkeley wrote some wacky yet inventive dialogues trying to prove that the entirety of reality is purely mental. (i.e, matter doesn't exist) He is most famous I think for his phrase "to be, is to be perceived", by which he would argue that the only reason that the sound of the tree would stil 'be', is that God is there to perceive it. A bit of a cop out really. From my brief delvings into philosophy, I found him to be quite nutty indeed! [img]smile.gif[/img] I even wrote a sonnet back in the uni days to him and his thinking.

On to be is to be perceived (To Berkeley)

Clever man, priest man, immaterial mind on the breeze,
Why is there existence when you are not here?
That realism did rationalise more than what we see,
Can not accept that perception dictates what it is, to be,
Kant would see beyond the limits of your empirical tree,
But would push the limits of all categorical reasoning!
Transcending the skeptical delvings of doubt, reason beyond itself!
Yet George, just how could you argue as you did,
Was it a disease of the mind or an encounter with Christ?
Platonic Visions? An introversive maxim caused by a yearning against the physical?
What I perceive and what I do not are vastly seperate notions,
Yet there are important inner differences so logical, there is still much left to perceive.
The world is as it is; independant of my perception, but physically
We are only atomic beings, our thoughts so small, like immaterial seeds.

Great idea for a thread Bozos, I guess to extend it, we could ask what the favourite factional belief system from RPG's is with the resident gamers and have a discussion of them. I must confess that although I aspire towards Avatarhood, I really got into the quasi buddhism of the Dustmen from Planescape! Aspire to the True Death!
Cheers,
CerebroDragon
++--UDIC--++

[Bozos of Bones]

FYI, the falling tree is the Zen question of unpercieved reality, while the one hand clapping is a political statement for unity. It was only later introduced as a Zen riddle, but it is NOT! It's two different examples of how boared someone can get.

[ 10-10-2003, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Bozos of Bones ]

[Spelca]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: If a man speaks in a forest, and no woman is around to hear it... is he still wrong?

Yes. [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img]

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[CerebroDragon]

Originally posted by Bozos of Bones: FYI, the falling tree is the Zen question of unpercieved reality, while the one hand clapping is a political statement for unity. It was only later introduced as a Zen riddle, but it is NOT! It's two different examples of how boared someone can get.

I don't think its that black and white at all - that one interpretation of an idea is necessarily the right one, otherwise well, it just wouldn't be Zen now would it? Interesting you think boredom has something to do with it. (boared?)
I wouldn't call any attempt to constructively understand reality or pose questions about that reality, as a sign of boredom at all. From my experience, bored people mope about in a jaded mess, and barely achieve anything constructive which cannot really be said about the achiemvents of Zen despite its inherent paradoxes. But anyway, I was hoping someone out there knew about the wackiness of Mr Berkeley to resond to anything I'd said earlier and to extend this dicussion further. I don't want it to deteriorate into a pedantic slinging match. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,
CerebroDragon

[Paladin2000]

Yes, there is sound. Sound is generated by some sort of vibration in the air, like a tree hitting the ground, for example...unless it happens to take place in a total vacuum environment.

Originally posted by CerebroDragon: I don't think its that black and white at all - that one interpretation of an idea is necessarily the right one, otherwise well, it just wouldn't be Zen now would it?

onya, cerebro. my interpretation of the one hand was one of awareness - the sounds behind the silence are everything you so easily, and regularly, tune out of your day to day life.

but as you say, zen is personal search, so my interpretation doesnt necessarily apply to anyone else.

edit: typo

[ 10-22-2003, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: sultan ]

[9_1_6]

Ofcourse it makes a sound.