GUildWars Factions

[Bozos of Bones]

First of all, you insult me b calling me a closet WoW player
I could think of several known sites that place GW higher than WoW.
Secondly, I never said GW is all original, or that noone ever said they said such a thing in an interview. What I am saying is this:
WoW has not introduced a single novelty that wasn't already in one of the top-selling MMORPGs.
GW has not introduced a single thing that was copied from WoW simply because there is nothing to copy from WoW.
And you can only run away from mobs in these cases:
1. you are on a run to an outpost/town/area(not really applicable in Factions and Nightfall)
2. you know you will have a safe place to rest afterwards(rarely applicable)
3. you botched a fight, but have anough room behind you to run away from the fight safely.
And none of these really happen during normal play.

Look, we can go on about this for ages. You prefer WoW, I prefer GW. Both of us can conjure up a gajillion sites, reviews, comments and top lists that confirm our beliefs(mine especially). So let's agree to disagree, and respect each other's opinions, however wong yours may be, ok?

[SpiritWarrior]

I agree that we could go on about it for yonks.

Also agreed, WoW didn't create anything unique to MMO's per se, but it is known for raising the bar by perfectly blending all these aspects.
However, there were some specific things that I read about which the article said were ideas taken from WoW. It was about a year ago and I remember seeing the patchnotes in comparison to the changes made in the GW world and thinking "My god it's true". They were shown side-by-side to illustrate with dates and all.

As far as success goes, WoW is on the top. Key in most successful MMO into Google for confirmation. 7 million players and counting with the first expansion on the way very shortly. I know in my heart i'll see you in Azeroth when the Burning Crusade hits, solemnly using your GW discs as coasters.

[Luvian]

First of all, number of customers mean nothing. The average customer is an easily uninfluenced idiot. Why do you think AOL has ever been successful?

I don't want to talk about WOW, I want to talk about GW. But out of memory the only thing WOW invented is the rest status. Oh! And maybe giving rage to warrior and energy to rogues instead of mana, but I'm not definite on this. First time used in a MMORPG, but I think I remember action games that had similar systems.. They did implement old features really well, but it wasn't new.

Now to talk about Guild Wars. You're underestimating the PVP and to a lesser extend the PVE of Guild Wars. The combat system of GW is exactly like the system of collectible card games like Magic: the Gathering, and this is a great part of the "thinking" part of the game for me. You have hundred of skills, you can only bring 8. Which ones do you bring? You can't be good at everything, you have to specialize. And then when you think you figured out what you wanted, out come a new xp pack with hundred of new skills, disrupting the previous balance and offering new opportunities. Then you don't actually HAVE all those skill, just like in MAGIC, you actually have to go out and get those rare ones.

Success in GW is not based on items you have or time you played. There's barely even an item system. Success is entirely about yous skills as a player, those of your character, and teamwork.

Most of the fun for me is about creating skill templates. I spend nights unlocking new skills, mixing and matching for more potential, going out to test those builds, and then adapting them to what I found. Last time I played I made a new pure Air Elementalist skill set based on the new nightfall skills, that's totally beaten my old Air/Earth skill set I had before. She's really really fun. I also made a new necro, and I'm experimenting with the new Ranger skills. I'm having tons of fun. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally posted by Luvian: First of all, number of customers mean nothing. The average customer is an easily uninfluenced idiot. Why do you think AOL has ever been successful? I don't want to talk about WOW, I want to talk about GW. But out of memory the only thing WOW invented is the rest status. Oh! And maybe giving rage to warrior and energy to rogues instead of mana, but I'm not definite on this. First time used in a MMORPG, but I think I remember action games that had similar systems.. They did implement old features really well, but it wasn't new. Now to talk about Guild Wars. You're underestimating the PVP and to a lesser extend the PVE of Guild Wars. The combat system of GW is exactly like the system of collectible card games like Magic: the Gathering, and this is a great part of the "thinking" part of the game for me. You have hundred of skills, you can only bring 8. Which ones do you bring? You can't be good at everything, you have to specialize. And then when you think you figured out what you wanted, out come a new xp pack with hundred of new skills, disrupting the previous balance and offering new opportunities. Then you don't actually HAVE all those skill, just like in MAGIC, you actually have to go out and get those rare ones. Success in GW is not based on items you have or time you played. There's barely even an item system. Success is entirely about yous skills as a player, those of your character, and teamwork. Most of the fun for me is about creating skill templates. I spend nights unlocking new skills, mixing and matching for more potential, going out to test those builds, and then adapting them to what I found. Last time I played I made a new pure Air Elementalist skill set based on the new nightfall skills, that's totally beaten my old Air/Earth skill set I had before. She's really really fun. I also made a new necro, and I'm experimenting with the new Ranger skills. I'm having tons of fun. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yeah some of the things you mentioned were on that list. I agree about the whole AOL argument of course, my point was just that it is the most successful. My point was not that it was the best, since that is only my opinion and as much as I disagree I can't force it.

Isn't the nights spent unlocking skills the same as farming for items or your class set though? In this case it is simply a skill that is your reward.

The 8 skills max I just find to be annoying. I would appreciate the system if it wasn't so black and white but come on, you need certain skills as an assasin for example. So that's 3-6 slots gone (depending on what core abilities you wanna bring on your assassin). Then take a heal and a rez signet and you're done. Sure, you can mix and match but in ways you'd be gimping yourself wouldn't you? I personally think the 8 slots is more of a restriction than a strategic opportunity to shine in a certain situation.

What people don't get is I am not bashing GW but just defending WoW. Nor am I blindly defending WoW. I picked up Nightfall there last week! I am always hoping the next expansion will be the one that gets me into it but it doesn't happen. I tried regular GW again a few days ago, replayed the prophecies campaign for a bit. After 1 hour I saw enough Devourers to make me never want to visit that campaign again. I tried my copy of Nightfall but only played a bit. While I really like the new theme and planned to get it the moment TDC posted it on the forums, I find myself thinking *groan* "more of the same stuff". The story is interesting, i'll say that but I amn't sure I can put in the energy as it feels like a chore to me.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: Yeah some of the things you mentioned were on that list. I agree about the whole AOL argument of course, my point was just that it is the most successful. My point was not that it was the best, since that is only my opinion and as much as I disagree I can't force it.

If you know success =/ quality why did you even bring it up?

Isn't the nights spent unlocking skills the same as farming for items or your class set though? In this case it is simply a skill that is your reward.

In one night I unlock half a dozen skills, and test them fully int he guilds I planed them for. It take at max an hour to unlock a skill, and no matter what happen, it will always be useful. As opposed to the tons of hours to get one wow item that will be obsolete in 2 patches when they introduce the new tier of items, so it's really not the same at all to me. One is a quick and lasting investment of time, the other is a pure time sink. You know you'll disenchant that item eventually. I'll always need that skill.

The 8 skills max I just find to be annoying. I would appreciate the system if it wasn't so black and white but come on, you need certain skills as an assasin for example. So that's 3-6 slots gone (depending on what core abilities you wanna bring on your assassin). Then take a heal and a rez signet and you're done. Sure, you can mix and match but in ways you'd be gimping yourself wouldn't you? I personally think the 8 slots is more of a restriction than a strategic opportunity to shine in a certain situation.

Actually no. There are plenty of way to use up those 8 slots. I've played for example different mesmers that didn't have a single skill in common. Of course it's always a good idea to have certain skills. For example a way to defend yourself, but this can vary a lot. On one elementalist template I use armor of earth, on the other I use blind. One of my mesmer use distortion, the other defend herself by disabling her enemies. Add in a good team with decent teamwork, and you can actually specialize even more. You can have your teammates cover your weaknesses.

If everyone could use all their skills, the game would be way easier. Try stopping a mesmer that can prevent you from casting, from attacking, can interrupt your every actions, disable your skills, steal some more of your skills, and on top of that has your health degenerate. You're screwed. The whole point of Guild Wars is that you can not handle every situation. You have to specialize and depend on your team for the rest. There's plenty of times just having one more slot or two would have made a huge difference and made me pretty much invincible.

What people don't get is I am not bashing GW but just defending WoW.

It's actually the same thing. When you're saying one is superior you're implying the other is inferior.

After 1 hour I saw enough Devourers to make me never want to visit that campaign again.

I hate the damned devourers, I can't stand them. They're ugly, they're annoying, and they pop up all over the place when you're trying to get anywhere. I hate early prophecies.

[SpiritWarrior]

If you know success =/ quality why did you even bring it up?

I didn't. Gotta start reading those threads [img]smile.gif[/img] .

In one night I unlock half a dozen skills, and test them fully int he guilds I planed them for. It take at max an hour to unlock a skill, and no matter what happen, it will always be useful. As opposed to the tons of hours to get one wow item that will be obsolete in 2 patches when they introduce the new tier of items, so it's really not the same at all to me. One is a quick and lasting investment of time, the other is a pure time sink. You know you'll disenchant that item eventually. I'll always need that skill.

It's similiar. Many classes won't use that skill or have need of it. The obsolete after 2 patches is just an assumption, and one that assumes level 60 tier sets only. WoW has items for 60 levels straight. The endgame is not all there is to it.

Actually no. There are plenty of way to use up those 8 slots. I've played for example different mesmers that didn't have a single skill in common. Of course it's always a good idea to have certain skills. For example a way to defend yourself, but this can vary a lot. On one elementalist template I use armor of earth, on the other I use blind. One of my mesmer use distortion, the other defend herself by disabling her enemies. Add in a good team with decent teamwork, and you can actually specialize even more. You can have your teammates cover your weaknesses. If everyone could use all their skills, the game would be way easier. Try stopping a mesmer that can prevent you from casting, from attacking, can interrupt your every actions, disable your skills, steal some more of your skills, and on top of that has your health degenerate. You're screwed. The whole point of Guild Wars is that you can not handle every situation. You have to specialize and depend on your team for the rest. There's plenty of times just having one more slot or two would have made a huge difference and made me pretty much invincible.

So actually yes, then. Since it's a good idea to always have certains skills. Why bring all the skills from your secondary, for example? While my example was an extreme one, my intent was to point out that the 8-slot limitation isn't some kind of blessing but simply, a restriction.

It's actually the same thing. When you're saying one is superior you're implying the other is inferior.

LOL, No it's not. But this is where you get tunnel-vision about it.

I hate the damned devourers, I can't stand them. They're ugly, they're annoying, and they pop up all over the place when you're trying to get anywhere. I hate early prophecies.

Thus why I won't play that campaign.

[Kyrvias]

I'm not for thinking that 8 skills is a restriction. The point is teamwork. You focus on a single theme, so to speak, try to block the most obvious threats, and hope for the best. The point is that you can't handle any situation at any given time. You *need* other people. The game absolutely redefines the word Teamwork.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: I didn't. Gotta start reading those threads.

What's this then:

As far as success goes, WoW is on the top. Key in most successful MMO into Google for confirmation. 7 million players and counting with the first expansion on the way very shortly.

So actually yes, then. Since it's a good idea to always have certains skills.

Did you actually read what I have written. I don't think so, you couldn't have read it and said that. I'll simplify it so you can understand:

1: I didn't say "take certain skills". I said "take certain type of skills". What? Are you now going to complain that you have to take attack type skills and that's just too cookie cutter for you? You wanted to play a pacifist character?
2: Again taking something to defend yourself doesn't mean one fixed skill. Pretty much 1/3 of all the skills can be used for defense. There's tons of variety and possibilities and none of them defend you in the same way. Do you want to defend yourself against spells? Hexes? Conditions? From interruption? You better make a good choice because you won't be able to take much more than one.
3: You don't actually have to bring defensive skills if you have a good enough offensive build, or like I said, it you have a good team with someone that can cover your weaknesses, so that you can focus better at your specialized role.

While my example was an extreme one, my intent was to point out that the 8-slot limitation isn't some kind of blessing but simply, a restriction.

No way, it's not a restriction, it's IS the game. It's the whole point of the system of Guild Wars and everything is balanced on it. Did you ever play a collectible card game? I had more than six hundred M:TG cards, yet I could only take 60 with me in one game. That's exactly the same thing, you can't take it all, so you have to specialize if you want to be effective. I was pretty good at that game too, I won at least 8-9 games out of every 10, because I knew about the cards and I could make good strategies with what I could bring. It's all about knowing and understanding all the available skills, to be able to counter them, individually or in teams. I suspect you don't understand this because you haven't invested enough interest in the game to fully master the system.

[ 12-23-2006, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Kyrvias]

That's hilarious. When I was typing my last response, I had a M:TG example ready, but decided against it. I think I'll put it out now

I had a combo deck way back when. The point of a combo deck is to specialize in a single strategy, card destruction, counterspell, whatever. You then put in cards to try and block the "holes" (weaknesses) and for the rest, well, you hope for the best. Like I said before, the point is that you can't handle any situation at any given time; you have to (should) specialize, and work together with other people.

[ 12-23-2006, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Kyrvias ]

[SpiritWarrior]

What's this then: As far as success goes, WoW is on the top. Key in most successful MMO into Google for confirmation. 7 million players and counting with the first expansion on the way very shortly.

That is my response to someones argument that GW is on top. Like I said, you gotta start reading those threads. Your original question as to if I knew the whole quality vs. success issue implied that I conceded to you that GW has more quality but WoW somehow gained an "AOL-type" success by chance. I don't and didn't. Merely pointing out I wasn't the first to make the comparison and I do agree that such a thing exists, but don't feel in the least that it is the case here. The original point and fact still persists, WoW is more successful.

Did you actually read what I have written. I don't think so, you couldn't have read it and said that. I'll simplify it so you can understand:

Of course I read it, look who's talking Mr. "please quote to back yourself up!" But thanks for the simplification btw.

1: I didn't say "take certain skills". I said "take certain type of skills". What? Are you now going to complain that you have to take attack type skills and that's just too cookie cutter for you? You wanted to play a pacifist character?

Yes, that was the jist of my complaint. I wouldn't mind if the game didn't create the illusion you could be unique but it does and really you can't. Again, sure you can mix and match but you could potentially gimp yourself. Why is this so hard to swallow?

No way, it's not a restriction, it's IS the game. It's the whole point of the system of Guild Wars and everything is balanced on it. Did you ever play a collectible card game? I had more than six hundred M:TG cards, yet I could only take 60 with me in one game. That's exactly the same thing, you can't take it all, so you have to specialize if you want to be effective. I was pretty good at that game too, I won at least 8-9 games out of every 10, because I knew about the cards and I could make good strategies with what I could bring. It's all about knowing and understanding all the available skills, to be able to counter them, individually or in teams. I suspect you don't understand this because you haven't invested enough interest in the game to fully master the system

That's more an an opinion really. To me it is still a restriction. The game isn't "balanced" on this system because if it was you wouldn't be able to potentially gimp a character by choosing certain skills. It may be centered around this system yes, but it isn't balanced.

[ 12-23-2006, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: SpiritWarrior ]