What I don't get

[Timber Loftis]

Untrue, Donut. If everyone can become a "has" wouldn't it solve the problem? That's what Marx said.

[Thoran]

OH... and my take on why Arab nations hate the US...

They want to big the big fish in the Middle Eastern small pond (for starters at least), and they don't like it when a bigger fish from a bigger pond jumps into their water and acts to negate their regional hegemony. They're the perfect example of "the pot calling the kettle black". They rail against our support of Isreal yet they see no problem in their support of the Palestinians. They fail to realize that if they hadn't been attempting to extinguish Israel all those years, and supporting terror attacks against Israel to today... we wouldn'n NEED to act to offset their behavior.

[Masklinn]

They rail against our support of Isreal yet they see no problem in their support of the Palestinians.

You rail against their support of Plaestinians yet you see no problem in your support of Israel.

Same stuff for me.

*shrug*

and they don't like it when a bigger fish from a bigger pond jumps into their water

Would you ?

*shrug* again.

[khazadman]

I am so sick of people who say we have no right to force our way of government on the Iraqis. Oh yeah, we all know that the Iraqis just love being terrorised by the Baathist criminals in Baghdad. Criminals who use torture, rape, and murder as tools of enforcement.
Just like the eastern Europeans couldn't live in a democracy after living under communism for so long. They seem to be doing ok so far.

[Bardan the Slayer]

Nobody is saying that any American-initiated government would be as bad as the current situation. the concerns that have been raised involve the american assumption that the Iraqi people must automatically want an American-style government. Maybe the Iraqi people would enjoy a socially-minded right wing government, but maybe they would like a left-wing government with National Free Health Care. Maybe they want to see certain things owned and run by the state, and not by private companies.

The point is - nobody has aked them. America has arrogantly decided that they will write up a plan for Iraq's future, based on the type of government America has and would want, and nobody seems to be asking the Iraqis' opinions.

Yes, getting rid of the Ba'ath party is a good thing. No, we do not think that any American-initiated government will be equivalent to living in hell's firey pits. Some people just think it's a touch arrogant to assume any country must want to be like the USA. Not even the UK wants to be like the USA, but you simply *assume* that the Iraqis will want a USA-style right wing government in power, and that's what you're going to put in there.

Wouldn't it be nice to ask the Iraqis what they want? If they want a USA-style government (that the USA has mapped out for them), then fine. Good luck to them. But what if they don't? Iraq should be rebuilt to the Iraqi peoples' specifications, not the USA's.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: The point is - nobody has aked them. America has arrogantly decided that they will write up a plan for Iraq's future, based on the type of government America has and would want, and nobody seems to be asking the Iraqis' opinions. Wouldn't it be nice to ask the Iraqis what they want? If they want a USA-style government (that the USA has mapped out for them), then fine. Good luck to them. But what if they don't? Iraq should be rebuilt to the Iraqi peoples' specifications, not the USA's.

Argument is presumptive and does not hold water where the USA is concerned.

We set up Japan's government post-WWII and even baby-sat it for a while to make sure it was a stable country. Nevertheless, Japan has been very free to choose its mode of government since we left, and has been quite willing to participate in what Lester Thurow calls "communistic market practices," e.g. letting the state run some industries or contribute directly or control industries.

Iraq will get to make up its own mind, and President Bush has said that time and again. You can't very well ask Iraq *before* you liberate it, can you????

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Masklinn: Quote: They rail against our support of Isreal yet they see no problem in their support of the Palestinians.

You rail against their support of Plaestinians yet you see no problem in your support of Israel.

Same stuff for me.

*shrug*

and they don't like it when a bigger fish from a bigger pond jumps into their water

Would you ?

*shrug* again.[/QUOTE]I never said I didn't have a problem with our support of Israel. In fact if the playing field were even (Arab nations keeping their noses out of Israel/Palestine) I would believe that the US should do likewise. Just as with Israel defending itself, US support of Israel is primarily in response to Arab agression.

In addition I would say that there are LOTS of international fish sticking their nose in our business right now, and I have stated numerous times in this forum that I believe this is beneficial to world stability overall. The US administration might not like it, but I see the start of a checks and balances system that is needed in this single superpower world.

*shakes head at shrugs*

[Bardan the Slayer]

Indeed you can't ask before liberation, and they are free to dictate their future society through free and fair elections. Some people simply have a problem with America setting the initial state as a 'mini-USA' on the assumption that this will be best.

The reason I brought this up wasn't because I'm overly concerned about that particular issue (since, as has been said, free election enable the people to dictate their future, and it will take a hell of a long time to sort out Iraq anyway), but because it ties in with the original topic.

Why does the Arab world hate America? Because they have the view that America is 'winning'. Winning what? Well, I'll tell you

If you listen to most of the Arab feeling as it is reported in the media, you get the impression (that may well be false in terms of the general populace) that one aim of the fundamentalist Arab states and their populations is to turn the entire world into an islamic state. Indeed, we have Islamic extremists here in the UK who have expressed their aim of turning the UK into an islamic state.

On the flip side of the coin, by watching some of the actions America takes (including the leaking of a repost co-written by Chaney, I believe, that states it's intention to establish and maintain "USA total global domionance in all areas"), you get the impression that the USA wants to turn the whole world into a USA-esque state.

Now, clearly the USA is winning (mainly because capitalist policies based on free trade tend to be more popular than fundamentalist policies that result in lack of luxury for the populace), and the extremist Arabs can't stand this. In fact, they are in a rage that the world is slowly being turned into the diametric opposite of what they think it should be. The result? Jealousy. Jealousy leads to hatred.

That's my take on it.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: Now, clearly the USA is winning (mainly because capitalist policies based on free trade tend to be more popular than fundamentalist policies that result in lack of luxury for the populace), and the extremist Arabs can't stand this. In fact, they are in a rage that the world is slowly being turned into the diametric opposite of what they think it should be. The result? Jealousy. Jealousy leads to hatred. That's my take on it.

That's what I said originally: The "have's" will always face avarice/angst/jealousy and accusations of unfairness from the "have nots." I know the Muslim life vs. the Capitalist (hey, it is a religion you know) life is more complex that this simple statement, but the same general notions of human mentality apply.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by The Lilarcor: I don't get something here, Why do the majority of the Arab Nations hate us?

Why are you stating it as a fact that they hate "you"? Have you asked them personally? Or do you draw your conclusions from footage shown on American television of fanatics burning an American flag every once and awhile, or the fact that there are terrorists among them? There are millions of people living in the Middle East, and I think there's only a small portion who have that irrational kind of hate against the US which is often mistakenly ascribed to the entirety of the muslim population over there.
Besides that, there are several other elements which could at least cause a certain level of distrust among the Arabian nations towards the US and its allies. Especially US involvement in the region over the past few decades plays a significant role in this; even putting all "other" motives aside and assuming the US got involved only for The Good Of Mankind, they've unfortunately still caused a lot of death and grief, both directly (accidently dropping bombs on civilians, for example) and indirectly (supporting Israel, supplying several countries with weapons in the 80's). And the US may have liberated the people of Afghanistan For The Sake Of Good, but tell that to people who lost innocent family members in it.

[ 03-25-2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]