A genuine Middle East question

[Azred]

I think most intelligent and rational people would agree that both sides are in the wrong in regards to their violent reprisals against one another. However, since there is no government of Palestine and the Palestinian people live within the borders of the recognized nation of Israel, it is the responsibility of the Palestinians to take the first step in ending the circle of violence. If the suicide bombers stop, then so will the tanks. It doesn't matter who started the violence, but it certainly matters who will be courageous enough to end it.

[Desdicado]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Why no UN resolution against Israel?, why no UN observers?. US double standards? Why no U.N. resolutions against Israel? Good question. Why don't you ask the U.N.? If any member country had a serious gripe against Israel and thier actions, then they could always request the U.N. to investigate and intervene in the situation - just like the U.S. did with Iraq. If the U.N. declined to take any action, then the member country could always say "I believe the Israeli atrocities are too heinous to be ignored. If the U.N. will not help us, we will go after Israel ourselves." (again, similar to the stance of the U.S., U.K., and Spain). .

I don't think anyone would seriously consider "going after " Israel, knowing full well that it has the full backing in anything it does of the most powerfull nation on earth!.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Of course, there is the minor problem that Israel is not threatening anybody other than Palestinians...and that is only being done in retaliation for attacks made against their citizens...so the U.N. is MORE likely to lend their support to Israel against the disgruntled member. This is NOT the situation with Iraq. In November, 2002...the members of the U.N. unanimously agreed that Saddam Hussein had not complied with the the resolution to disarm and that it was time to send inspectors back in to try and complete the job they started 12 years ago. Even France, Germany, and Russia agree that Saddam Hussein should be disarmed and conceivably removed from power...they just disagree on how that goal should be accomplished. >[/QB]

Numerous UN resolutions have been tabled, all have been vetoed by the US.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: U.S. double standards? Nope. Israel is an ALLY of the U.S. and has not threatened our military nor our citizens. They do not consider America to be the "Great Satan". They have NOT been torturing, mutiliting, and slaughtering their own citizens. They have been retaliating against very real attacks aimed at thier citizens. Even with the ferocity prevalent on BOTH sides of the fighting between Israel and Palestine, NEITHER side has used chemical or biological weapons against the other. Saddam Hussein is NOT an ally of the U.S. He does consider us the "Great Satan" and his regime has committed innumerable atrocities against their "enemies" and their own citizens alike. So - NO - I don't see any "double standard" between our treatment of the two.[/QB]

Ah, I see now, it is alright for Israel to commit atrocities because it is an ally of the US.
Perhaps that is Saddams mistake, he should have stayed friendly with the US, which after all was arming him during the Iran Iraq war.

Incidentally, I don't support suicide bombers, any more than I support Israel trying to depopulate the Palestinian areas.
However, the Palestinians have no tanks, planes or army and I do understand their need to fight back.

[ 03-19-2003, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: Desdicado ]

[Masklinn]

Don't forget that the Israelis have not publically declared that the Arab world will be better once the Palistinians have been pushed into the sea either.

Maybe not publically, but what do you think is this will of Israel to keep violating Palestinian territory by building new houses and establishing ppl there on a daily basis ?

Isreali zealots are as bad as Palestinian ones. They kill their statesmen when they dare make a move toward peace. Also they don't have to bomb civilians, cause their current government is sending tanks instead.

So you have terrorists on one side and army on the other. While you think one is more legitimate than the other, I tell you, it's not the case.

They're both so wrong that I don't see how this problem can be solved anytime soon.

[the new JR Jansen]

Originally posted by Masklinn: They're both so wrong that I don't see how this problem can be solved anytime soon.[/QB]

Correction, they're both so stubborn.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Desdicado: However, the Palestinians have no tanks, planes or army and I do understand their need to fight back.

Do you understand the Israeli need to fight back?

[Indemaijinj]

Still, how would you like to see the palestinian conflict solved? Remember, this is not a "kill all kobolds" question. The problem is that the palestinians (with this I mean the palestinians in general, not just the terrorists among them) are not in a position to surrender. There is no wish for general coexistence in the Israeli government. The palestinians right now face a destiny somewhat similar to the natives of North America.

They are kept in reservations that are slowly being chipped away by jewish settlers. They cannot flee to neighbouring countries because they cannot support the influx of refugees.

When humans have had all their possibilities to create themselves a decent life removed funny things happen to them.

[ 03-19-2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Indemaijinj ]

[Desdicado]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Quote: Originally posted by Desdicado: However, the Palestinians have no tanks, planes or army and I do understand their need to fight back.

Do you understand the Israeli need to fight back?[/QUOTE]In Scotland it's in our nature to favour the underdog, due to being next to our bigger, more populous neighbour and the Palestinians are definitely the underdogs.
I would say Israel brings it's problems on itself by building illegal settlements against international law in Palestinian areas & not allowing a Palestinian state amongst others, so no, I don't have much sympathy or understanding for Israel.

You could say Israel is "invading" Palestinian areas, why no US sanctions or military action to stop it?.
Had to put this in but I guess we've already covered this in earlier posts in this thread. Because Israel is an ally of the US and so can do what the hell it likes.

[ 03-19-2003, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Desdicado ]

[Desdicado]

Originally posted by Indemaijinj: There is no wish for general coexistence in the Israeli government. The palestinians right now face a destiny somewhat similar to the natives of North America. They are kept in reservations that are slowly being chipped away by jewish settlers. They cannot flee to neighbouring countries because they cannot support the influx of refugees. When humans have had all their possibilities to create themselves a decent life removed funny things happen to them.

Do you know what is strange, I wa just thinking about an American context to put this in, came up with the native Americans, went back to the board and there this post was. Spooky !

I think you are dead right anyway with what you say, a lack of hope will make people turn to any available means.

[Indemaijinj]

No, the old America is hardly similar to the America of today.

Besides, Israel can never be successful with such a policy because of the outside pressure.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Desdicado: In Scotland it's in our nature to favour the underdog, due to being next to our bigger, more populous neighbour and the Palestinians are definitely the underdogs.

Underdog or not, intentionally targeting civilians makes them no heroes or freedom fighters, and does nothing to futher their cause. It only brings tanks and bombs.

You can understand that they will do whatever they can to fight for their cause, and I can understand that the Israelis have to protect their population.

[ 03-19-2003, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]