Wine bashing !

[the new JR Jansen]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: I don't see pouring out wine in protest as being absurd at all. In fact I easily find burning pictures and flags as the more ridiculous of the two. This economic and symbolic protest hopes to send a message both at home and abroad. The burning of photos and flags appears to be quite violent for those who are only interested in peace.

Now Ronn, i never said that burning flags etc. wasn't pathetic. I just said that i find these things also pathetic. If they are more or less pathetic then burning flags wasn't the point i wanted to make.

I do find pouring wine down the sewer a bit pathetic though. I do recognize that it's his property and that he can do with it what he wants but wasting something perfectly good just because your gouvernment has a problem with the gouvernment where this product is made is a bit pathetic.

The 'french fries' thing is even worse. Let's look at the term 'french fries'. This term, most likely, has nothing to do with France or the French but is derived from the verbe 'to french'. Now either they didn't know that and then changing this into 'freedom fries' is not pathetic but is an overly emotional reaction bordering on stupidity. Or they did know it and then they changed the name because it had a 'negative' sound and then i do find that pathetic.

[Moiraine]

Oh Ronn, I prefer to laugh than cry about it ...

I see burning of President photos or flags and destroying wine and bread as quite different actually. Aiming your anger to photos and/or flags is a - slightly hysterical- way of expressing your disagreement towards a political entity.

You see, when I buy wine, I don't buy it from shops, I go to wine fairs or directly to winemakers. Because there I am meeting craftsmen, who take a real pleasure in talking about their wine and watch you enjoy tasting it. All good winemakers I have met can talk to you for hours even if you don't buy them even one bottle. Good breadmakers are such too.

All that to say that I consider wine- and bread-makers as craftmen bordering, in some case, to real artists. They sell you much more than food and drink - they sell you pleasure, they share their love of their craft. So when you trample bottles of wine and loaves of bread, you aim your protests and anger at the PEOPLE, not at the nation. If one wants to shut away French products - then he can simply not buy them.

I would very much like Yorick to post here what he would feel if he saw his music trampled by people protesting over a political disagreement between their country and his.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by the new JR Jansen: Now Ronn, i never said that burning flags etc. wasn't pathetic. I just said that i find these things also pathetic. If they are more or less pathetic then burning flags wasn't the point i wanted to make. No you didn't say that burning flags wasn't pathetic. In fact, you didn't say anything about it all, but did feel compelled to comment on the wine. I do find pouring wine down the sewer a bit pathetic though. I do recognize that it's his property and that he can do with it what he wants but wasting something perfectly good just because your gouvernment has a problem with the gouvernment where this product is made is a bit pathetic. He's not doing it because his government has a problem with the actions of the French government, he's doing it because HE has a problem with their actions. It is his way of protesting. Would it be better if he quit his job and marched infront of their embassy? The 'french fries' thing is even worse. Let's look at the term 'french fries'. This term, most likely, has nothing to do with France or the French but is derived from the verbe 'to french'. Now either they didn't know that and then changing this into 'freedom fries' is not pathetic but is an overly emotional reaction bordering on stupidity. Or they did know it and then they changed the name because it had a 'negative' sound and then i do find that pathetic. I know people think Americans are stupid, but we really aren't this stupid. It may be hard to believe, but trust me on this one, ok? We know French Fries don't come from France. It is a symbolic protest. Your statements are very interesting for someone who thought comments I made about his nation were insulting. You seem to have no problems calling these American's actions pathetic and bordering on stupidity. Aren't they entitled to protest in a way that they feel is appropriate?

[ 03-03-2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Moiraine: So when you trample bottles of wine and loaves of bread, you aim your protests and anger at the PEOPLE, not at the nation. If one wants to shut away French products - then he can simply not buy them.

All protests are aimed at people. The protests against the US govenment's position on Iraq is also a protest against me, because I share those views. It's all quite personal.

Those people who are discarding French wine are refusing to buy those French products. The pouring out and breaking bottles from their inventory as a first step in a symbolic protest.

[Davros]

LOL - Ronn, have you got a new job you are not telling us about [img]smile.gif[/img] ? You seem to have become the Chief Minister for Defence lately. I hope there is an extra salary in this for you to help pay for the new laptop and the lounge room cable [img]smile.gif[/img] . I am disappointed though - how can you sit back so complacently while hundereds of bottles of innocent wine are senselessly slaughtered?

Have to say I think it is a pity that the right wing of America (and yes, the evidence from all I have researched on the topic indicates that the scathing quotes are "predominantly" republican hardliners) have gone to such odd extremes in venting their anger on the French.

Irrespective of how you want to frame the rights and wrongs of the whole war on Iraq situation (again, I am pro kicking Saddam out, but it really is irrelavent to the point I am making), the message that their point of view is sending to the world is that no nation has the right to stand up and say "I object" to the US anymore. They will crucify you if you dare try it. That sort of carrying on is what really disappoints me.

[Ronn_Bman]

I would have told everyone about my new job, but then I'd have to invade you. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

As to the alcohol abuse, it is a sad sight to see. Some many lost, too young. The loss of a screw top is one thing, but a corked bottle? That really smarts. [img]smile.gif[/img]

On the serious side though Davros, why is the protest of these people so offensive? The US government isn't calling for it, these people made their own decision based on their own beliefs(I'm sure a few are probably doing it for the publicity ). They aren't saying no one can object to the US, but should they also have to sit idly by without making their voice known. They can't object to views which oppose their own? These people are saying the French government is wrong, and I don't get the uproar over it. Aren't we ALL suppose to be able to support our own views?

I've never made as big a deal out of burning effigies and flags as has been made here over pouring out wine. Seems to me that pouring out wine would be less offensive, not more, but I've been wrong before. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-03-2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Davros: LOL - Ronn, have you got a new job you are not telling us about [img]smile.gif[/img] ? You seem to have become the Chief Minister for Defence lately. I hope there is an extra salary in this for you to help pay for the new laptop and the lounge room cable [img]smile.gif[/img] . I am disappointed though - how can you sit back so complacently while hundereds of bottles of innocent wine are senselessly slaughtered? Have to say I think it is a pity that the right wing of America (and yes, the evidence from all I have researched on the topic indicates that the scathing quotes are "predominantly" republican hardliners) have gone to such odd extremes in venting their anger on the French. Irrespective of how you want to frame the rights and wrongs of the whole war on Iraq situation (again, I am pro kicking Saddam out, but it really is irrelavent to the point I am making), the message that their point of view is sending to the world is that no nation has the right to stand up and say "I object" to the US anymore. They will crucify you if you dare try it. That sort of carrying on is what really disappoints me.

Sorry, but I agree with Ronn on this one. I mean, how extreme and violent does it seem when 'peace' marchers burn or hang or shoot etc effigies of someone? Be it Bush, Chirac, or anyone. Same for burning flags etc.

Seems to me, these folk (the wine decimation groups) are destroying their own property in a reasonably un-violent manner. (well, I suppose the glass bottles feel violatated.. but last I saw they weren't watching their own demise in 'effigy' on the late news.. [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

Frankly it's not all that unusual for Americans to dump beverages in protest... remember the Boston Tea party? LOL

Seriously, though, this is a highly charged time, politically and defensively for a lot of us and I find it odd that you are 'protesting' so much over some private individuals showing their dislike of someone's foreign policy by chucking out some food items. I can remember times when we we all exorted not to buy one thing or another from this country or that in protest of working conditions or some trade policy or such... so why is it so unacceptable to dump a bottle of wine out? Besides the obvious shame of wasting a good vintage, that is!

edit... hit the send instead of preview! LOL

Anyway, Davros, from my perspective as an American, I suspect we've just gotten saturated with the anti-anything-american attitude that was so prevalent of late and are hitting 'backlash' mode. It happens all over the world in cycles. It just happens to be here at this point. Maybe next decade we'll be boycotting Mongolian weavers because their country has banned books by English authors or Aussie publishers... who knows...

[ 03-03-2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Sir Taliesin]

Davros, had you seen the talk shows yesterday, you'd have see any number of Democrats sounding off against the French position, Joseph Biden Democratic Senator from Maryland and Graham a Democratic Senator from Florida amoung them. Graham I might add, has declared his candidency for President for 2004.

Also why should you be surprised that the right is up in arms about the French position, after all Bush is from the right. I would expect his supporters to kick up the most fuss!

[Timber Loftis]

I agree with Cloudy on this one. There is nothing wrong with peaceful protest against a country's policies - foreign or otherwise. Destroying your own property in protest may be fiscally irresponsible but is a First Amendment right of free speech here - and, IMO, it should be a right everywhere.

We can speculate over how well these people understand the issues, are goaded by the RNC and the media, or simply dislike the French more than the Germans, but to state these things, through words or peaceful acts, is their right.

Remember, after 9/11, many people see the French/German/etc. opposition to the war as demanding America sit back and wait for another disaster before it is allowed to act. It's a very emotional thing here. For those of you who think *I* support the war wholeheartedly, you should see me trying to discuss the flip-side of the issues with my co-workers. Some of the most intelligent and highly-paid legal professionals you'll ever meet are ready to string me up just for CONSIDERING the French points.

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Davros: Have to say I think it is a pity that the right wing of America (and yes, the evidence from all I have researched on the topic indicates that the scathing quotes are "predominantly" republican hardliners) have gone to such odd extremes in venting their anger on the French.

Uh..'We' (as in right wingers) are going to far? So showing a dislike to another country by getting rid of their products for a PRIVATE company is going to far but it doenst seem to be going to far for people protesting the war every day, and left wing politicians going to Iraq in an act against the war, and people compairing Bush to hitlers...Thats ok huh? Thats not extreme and is all prefectly well.

You wanna know something I really dont understand? Why is it that just because left wingers dont agree with Bush they feel the need to protest every week and make statments and all that sort of stuff? You know, right wingers didnt like Cliton anymore than left wingers like Bush, yet we didnt protest and do everything humanly possible to let him now we didnt like him there. Look I have no problem with people disagreeing with the war in Iraq...I can see thier point of view completely, and sometimes actually almost agree with the point of view.

BUT to say that this is to 'have gone to such odd extremes ' when the the exact samething is done by left winers, and I have NEVER seen you make too much of a statement saying what there doing is 'odd extremes'.