massive antiwar protests expected worldwide...

[The Hierophant]

Ha ha.
The amusing thing is that so many people seem to have gotten the notion that their governments actually care about what they have to say. Some people don't seem to have cottoned onto the fact that money and weapons are what you need in order to get your opinions taken notice of. '500,000' people (if the figures are even accurate) gathered together for a futile 'can't-we-all-just-get-along' meeting might make a great front-page news photo, but it will change nothing in terms of how valuable a successful invasion of Iraq shall be for all involved.

The war IS going to happen, in fact you might as well consider Iraq invaded already. It's there for the taking, no one with any diplomatic savvy is going to pass up this opportunity. The real issue here is whether the UN is going to survive this ordeal, and what new political world order shall be established among 'the allies' should the UN go the way of the League of Nations.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by skywalker: I did not even intimate that 1 leader runs each side. Why are over analyzing my post?

I don't mean to over analyze, I guess I just didn't understand this reference....

Originally posted by skywalker: The desires of any given leader should not be the only voice given weight or heeded without question.

Actually I do understand it, and agree with it in principle, but I'm not sure I understand it in the context of what's being discussed here unless you are intimating that one leader's voice is being given weight and heeded without question.

EDIT - Sorry if I came off too harshly. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-14-2003, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: I'm going! Just thought I'd interject that into the conversation... Well, I do live in London after all - it would be kind of silly not to go - wouldn't it! Considering my views on the matter and everything.

Be safe and let us know about the turn out. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[norompanlasolas]

i have just came back and only because i live like 5 blocks away from la puerta del sol (door of the sun). first estimations say around 1.5 million people manifested in madrid, 1.3 in barcelona, 500,000 in valencia and 1 million more in other cities of spain. in rome there were 1.5 million and around the same number or more in london, plus half a million in berlin. in the us massive protests are beginning in new york and other cities. i think numbers speak for themselves...

maybe for the first time in history people will be able to turn the path of their "leaders". blair already spoke about giving more time to weapons inspectors. lets hope everybody does the same and change their warmongering ways.

I wanted to go on the anti war protest in London, but Where I do part time work, Since other people wanted to go The Pharisees needed some people there and they offered to pay me double Time So I stayed and worked.

Will 30 silver pieces be my reward!!??!?!

[skywalker]

News of the protests around the World just makes me !

Mark

[ 02-15-2003, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: skywalker ]

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by norompanlasolas: tomorrow here in madrid, at least 150,000 people are expected for a huge antiwar protest. In the last parliament the GOP was left alone against ALL the opposition in the war debate. Polls say 75% of the population are against a war. sooo... dont sign in spain to the countries that want a war... the only one that wants it is our idiot of a president.

Actually, that is the case all over Europe... I don't think there's a single country in Europe where a majority of the people actually supports a war. A recent poll in our country actually pointed out that "the" Dutch people think that the US is a bigger danger to world peace than Iraq and North-Korea, in fact. Even though those aren't official statistics from referendi of course (it will also depend on the way the questions in those polls are formulated, I assume), it's safe to say that the US has a bit of a reputation problem over here in Europe at the moment.

[ 02-15-2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by norompanlasolas: maybe for the first time in history people will be able to turn the path of their "leaders". Blair already spoke about giving more time to weapons inspectors. lets hope everybody does the same and change their warmongering ways.

More time will be given, but it isn't being given to the inspectors. Hans Blix has said that with complete Iraqi cooperation the inspector's job didn't have to take as long as it already has taken. With Iraqi cooperation, it could have proceeded at a brisk pace in '91 and been a distant memory by now.

Since it has been made clear the inspectors can never do their job without complete Iraqi cooperation, it's clear the extra time has been given to Saddam Hussein and his government. Hopefully, he will use it to save his people from further hardship by completely complying with the UN.

More time will be given, and if, in the end, a war is averted and the same end result is achieved (the disarming of Iraq), the SC members who stood strong against military action will have much to be proud of, but what will happen when the report on March 15 says the same thing that the report on February 15 said? The February report of course said the same thing the previous report had said, and those report pretty much matched the inspector's reports from the 90's with regard to Iraqi cooperation. This is the same level of cooperation which caused the inspectors to be withdrawn. Maybe this time it won't take 7 years to figure out the inspectors can't work with the Iraqis because the Iraqis won't cooperate completely.

What will people think when the UN is told again that Iraq is not completely cooperating, and the inspectors won't be able to do their job without Iraqi cooperation? They'll be applauded again for avoiding war, won't they? What about when the report comes back in March of 2004?

What happens if the US completely backs down and brings the troops home? Who's going to pressure Saddam to submit? The raving praise offered over the few Iraqi concessions can be directly attributed to the threat of military force, and the overwhelming majority of military force I see threatening Iraq is US. If we pack up and go home, how long will the "carrots" Iraq is offering to the UN last? Maybe once the US troops are gone, the floodgates will open and ALL will be revealed, but I somehow doubt it.

Am I a warmonger? Well, by definition, in this instance yes! I urge war as does my government. I don't crave war. I don't enjoy war. I don't think war is the answer to everything, but I do urge war, so, in this instance, I'm a warmonger.

I hope in two years someone can say, "Ronn remember when you encouraged the wasting of all those innocent lives back in '03? Aren't you glad it didn't happen because it wasn't necessary?" And I hope my answer will be yes.

It still seems weird to me that those who put the highest faith in the inspectors being able to solve this problem think that more time and more inspectors are the answer when the inspectors themselves have said that the only additional ingredient needed for the disarmament of Iraq is the cooperation of Iraq.

All the non-military nations say they want Iraq to comply completely, but the only thing they can offer in the way of making it happen is "continued pressure". Pressure which, for the greatest part, comes from 100k+ US troops. Isn't it great that they can demand peace without having to pay the price for fielding the army?

After the SC meeting on Friday the French Foreign Minister talked to the press. He said the pressure being exerted on Iraq was the reason for its (limited) compliance. When asked if France would be willing to send troops with the US to increase or sustain the pressure (not to act) he said no, the current pressure "was enough". Isn't it great that the US is exerting just enough pressure for peace and those who insist on peace don't have to pay the bill?

Do I belittle the anti-war protesters? NO, I don’t.

I respect their decisions. I just hope they base their decisions on the correct information. If they are for peace no matter what, then more power to them, but for the anti-war protesters who think the answer to this problem is more inspectors and more time for those inspectors, I say, you aren't listening to what the inspectors are saying.

Oppose the war for any reason... except the ones the inspector's reports prove invalid.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by skywalker: News of the protests around the World just makes me ! Mark

It makes Saddam smile, too, but for a completely different reason.

You, and those who protest, oppose military action because you don't want to see innocents die, and because you aren't convinced action is necessary at this time, but Saddam smiles because his plan is working perfectly. If he provides enough carrots to the UN, he will find many governments willing to accept the unacceptable, so in effect, he is "home free" only a few months after thinking it was nearly the endgame for Saddam Hussein.

EDIT - Of course, I can't read Saddam's mind, but it's seems that since this approach worked for Iraq during the 90's, there was no reason to believe it couldn't/wouldn't work now despite the Bush-bluster. Especially since the only military attempt at action to enforce the 1991 UN resolutions has been blocked by nations who didn't have a diplomatic solution in mind prior to the past few months.

[ 02-15-2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Grojlach: it's safe to say that the US has a bit of a reputation problem over here in Europe at the moment.

Sad, but true!