Heh!?!

Radek, I really do not know where you get your ideas from. They appear not to resemble reality at all. Buit I am going to try one more time to answer your questions.

1. You are just using semantics, the USA would have gone and executed Desert Storm no matter what the UN says. The UN is not the arbiter of everything legal and illegal. The US. has acknowledged no binding subjugation to the UN legal system...not that there is one.

2. Your in ability to understand that the very nature of a piece of information being able to be traced back to a source indicates you really need to read more about how intelligence works (I worked in Intelligence for 10 years, so I do know just a little of what I am talking about).

Your assertion that the Inspectors are an ally on our side is silly. The inspectors are innefective because they telegraph their intent hours ahead of time, so that any site they do visit the site is well prepared for their arrival. (It isnt hard to spot a convoy of White UN vehicles kicking up dust in Iraq)

The presidential palaces are not single buildings, they are not multiple buildings, they are entire areas of space, the one in the north that I am most concerned with is several thousand acres large with unknown amounts of under ground facilities tunnled into the mountasins, it is known to be an extensive system though. NO UN inspector to date has come within a hundred miles of the place.

As for questioning my truthfulness, I was a bit insulted by this.. the Mustard Gas was found by the current group of inspectors and reported in international news journals. They found the Artillery Shells used to deliver it and the Gas right where the last group of inspectors left them So please do not accuse me of telling lies unless you have incontrovertible proof that I am. I may ocassionally be misinformed, but I do not lie in these forums.

3. Please produce one document from the inspectors detailing their search of a presidential palace. The Presidential palaces have not been searched, nor are they "Searched All the time" that statement was ridiculous. There isn't any site in Iraq that is searched "all the time".

4. On this point you completely missed my point and did not understand what I said at all. Either english is not your first language, in which case its no big deal, or you are just trying to twist the subject.

5. My numbers are those accepted by the UN...where do you get yours? Oh and don't go claiming that all of the casualties are due to american or coalition forces..remember those pretty CNN films of thousands of tracer rounds being shot into the sky by Iraqi anti-aircraft weapons? Guess where those rounds came down? Right int he middle of population centers. When you shoot into the air..the bullets come back down and can still kill. My numbers are correct. ours are in error. (correct being a reletive term since none of the numbers are gouing to be exact.)

6. You didn't have a 6th point...but you are starting to remind me of a certain someone on this forum that I have not seen in a while...all you need to do is throw in an Ad homm and or a straw man and the connection would be complete.

[Luvian]

Remember, when things get heated, it's wise to take a break before posting.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: Radek, I really do not know where you get your ideas from. They appear not to resemble reality at all. Buit I am going to try one more time to answer your questions. 1. You are just using semantics, the USA would have gone and executed Desert Storm no matter what the UN says. The UN is not the arbiter of everything legal and illegal. The US. has acknowledged no binding subjugation to the UN legal system...not that there is one. 2. Your in ability to understand that the very nature of a piece of information being able to be traced back to a source indicates you really need to read more about how intelligence works (I worked in Intelligence for 10 years, so I do know just a little of what I am talking about). Your assertion that the Inspectors are an ally on our side is silly. The inspectors are innefective because they telegraph their intent hours ahead of time, so that any site they do visit the site is well prepared for their arrival. (It isnt hard to spot a convoy of White UN vehicles kicking up dust in Iraq) The presidential palaces are not single buildings, they are not multiple buildings, they are entire areas of space, the one in the north that I am most concerned with is several thousand acres large with unknown amounts of under ground facilities tunnled into the mountasins, it is known to be an extensive system though. NO UN inspector to date has come within a hundred miles of the place. As for questioning my truthfulness, I was a bit insulted by this.. the Mustard Gas was found by the current group of inspectors and reported in international news journals. They found the Artillery Shells used to deliver it and the Gas right where the last group of inspectors left them So please do not accuse me of telling lies unless you have incontrovertible proof that I am. I may ocassionally be misinformed, but I do not lie in these forums. 3. Please produce one document from the inspectors detailing their search of a presidential palace. The Presidential palaces have not been searched, nor are they "Searched All the time" that statement was ridiculous. There isn't any site in Iraq that is searched "all the time". 4. On this point you completely missed my point and did not understand what I said at all. Either english is not your first language, in which case its no big deal, or you are just trying to twist the subject. 5. My numbers are those accepted by the UN...where do you get yours? Oh and don't go claiming that all of the casualties are due to american or coalition forces..remember those pretty CNN films of thousands of tracer rounds being shot into the sky by Iraqi anti-aircraft weapons? Guess where those rounds came down? Right int he middle of population centers. When you shoot into the air..the bullets come back down and can still kill. My numbers are correct. ours are in error. (correct being a reletive term since none of the numbers are gouing to be exact.) 6. You didn't have a 6th point...but you are starting to remind me of a certain someone on this forum that I have not seen in a while...all you need to do is throw in an Ad homm and or a straw man and the connection would be complete.

Well said Magik.

Did you guys know that the guitarist in my band is the son of Richard Butler, the Australian who was head of UN weapons inspections in Iraq for a fair while, and was the most hated man in Iraq during that time. Effigies were made of him and burned.

Anyhow, I'm siding with you and Ronn on this one Magik.

Love point six btw.

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by MagiK: Great Post IR,

Er,,,I havent posted in this thread yet [img]tongue.gif[/img] Unless IR is someone else..I dont see anyone else in this thread that has IR for their intials though.. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

WHOOPS! My BAd Iron Ranger [img]smile.gif[/img] You make excellent posts too, but I ment to indicate my agreement with B-Mann in this instance.

I Wish to acknowledge an error I made. I was wrong when I said no Presidential Palaces have been searched. Apparently 4 or 5 have been searched. Smaller ones in and around Baghdad, but NOT the one in the north that covers a huge tract of land.

Note the big letters in my admission of error, some people have said that I never admit them....this should be noticable

[Shaide]

I'm in the same side that Radek. Actually the only countries which can stop to the United States are the EU. The muslims countries havent got the same ideas that occidentals countries, if they have it then they were westerns countries.
Here in europe the people dont want more war, like the last century, and the last, and the last... here in the past we had dictadors who killed a lot of people. I think United States didnt have any dictador and they cant see they actually have one. Bush, I mean the people who get the power there, does that he want to. He want to get the oil control in the world, Why dont let that poor countries have the control in the oil?, This would be the best reason for they gain more money, I think Bush has fear, 'cause they wouldnt be puppets then. Like the european old kings and lords, they didnt wish that the people didnt go to the school 'cause then they would know why they have this problem and how get the solutions.

Shaide

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Shaide: I'm in the same side that Radek. Actually the only countries which can stop to the United States are the EU. The muslims countries havent got the same ideas that occidentals countries, if they have it then they were westerns countries. Here in europe the people dont want more war, like the last century, and the last, and the last... here in the past we had dictadors who killed a lot of people. I think United States didnt have any dictador and they cant see they actually have one. Bush, I mean the people who get the power there, does that he want to. He want to get the oil control in the world, Why dont let that poor countries have the control in the oil?, This would be the best reason for they gain more money, I think Bush has fear, 'cause they wouldnt be puppets then. Like the european old kings and lords, they didnt wish that the people didnt go to the school 'cause then they would know why they have this problem and how get the solutions. Shaide

Were do you get off calling Bush a dictator? Last I looked, he won the election fair and square, according to the rules under which we hold our elections. Every President we have ever elected won under those same base rules! That doesn't sound like a dictator to me.

Here is the definition of Dictator taken from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary (online):

1 a : a person granted absolute emergency power; especially : one appointed by the senate of ancient Rome b : one holding complete autocratic control c : one ruling absolutely and often oppressively
2 : one that dictates

Don't forget that Bush can't do anything by himself! The House and Senate must go along as well. He has had support from both parties there. If there were a vote today on whether or not to go to war with Iraq today, then the vote would be to go to war! Those are the facts in the US.

As far as the poor people in the world controlling the oil, well most countries that control the oil are rather rich! Just look at the Middle East. All the countries that control the oil have a farily high standard of living (with the possible exception of Iraq and had Saddam not invade Kuwait then they'd have a high standard of living too!). So are you suggesting that all those countries turn their oil revenue over to the poor nations of the world?... Righhhtttt... Like that's going to happen. Get real!

Why would the US or Bush for that matter care if the rest of the world had an education? That makes no sense what so ever! Let's face it. The US would stand to make a hell of a lot of money if the rest of the world were more educated. Education, means more jobs, means more money, means more money to SPEND... possibly on items made in the USA... or China... or Japan... or God forbid the EU! We'd like to see the world's standard of living come up. Save us a lot of tax dollars that we could be spending at home. We wouldn't be feeding the world then.

Rant over! (gets off his soapbox).

[Shaide]

Well, When I said Bush, I mean the Bush's administration, and when I said dictador, this is a mistake, I wanted to mean "like dictador" (sorry) ¬_¬!
Well Sir Taliesin, I must say something: Hitler elected won too. But the german people used to think like Hitler, this is the real danger, then what's wrong?... Is the people thinking like Bush's administration in this country?, or are they doing that they want to without the citizen?. I hope Bush's administration are doing that they want to, else the world have other danger, like happend in the past with German. I know the USA citizen are intelligents and they dont want more wars, but they have a president with low intelligence, and I know that He havent got any power, he is a puppet, like all presidents in the world, and all persons know it.

Shaide

[Sir Taliesin]

Do you consider George Bush to be of low intelligence, because you don't agree with his policies or do you know something the rest of us don't? As for being a puppet, just who is he a puppet to? Again, do you know something that the rest of us don't know? If so, then why don't you let us all in on the secret.

Since you don't seem to like George Bush, just who would you have voted for in the Presidental elections, if you could have voted?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Radek: To Ronn_Bman. You are repeating the standard propaganda about Saddam not allowing his people to feed. If you want to know the reality then check, for example pages of D. Halliday and H. von Sponeck (http://www.notinournames.org). Note: D. Halliday was the first UN administrator of the "Oil for Food" programme. H. von Sponeck was the second UN administrator of the same programme. Therefore, both D. Halliday and H. von Sponeck are people that know what are they speaking about. Both of them abdicated after finding out what the programme really is.

I'm repeating what makes sense. Just because it's on the news doesn't necessarily make it propaganda.

If he has the money to continually buy grossly expensive weapons, then he should be spending that money on food for his people. The UN inspectors say he's been buying conventional weapons and possibly equipment for WMD based on what they've found so far, and he's certainly been buying AA sites(if not he wouldn't have any left). It doesn't make sense to believe it's ok for him to spend money that way, while his people starve.

The people on your site don't say Saddam isn't spending money for weapons that he should be spending on food, so I repeat, if he isn't spending the money he already has for food when his people are starving, and he wasn't spending money to feed the starving before the sanctions, why would anyone think that giving him more money would change the fact that Iraqi's are starving.

I have a hard time believing the anti-war lobby believes in trickle down economics.

The only way they'll all be fed is if international humanitarian groups go in and feed them. Of course feeding his population for him, while allowing Saddam to spend his money on military might and personal fortunes just isn't going to happen.

[ 01-17-2003, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]