American Taliban??? - Page 2

Scholarcs · 12-06-2001, 12:39 AM

What other charges are there relating to the events? If he was not involved in terror, murder, sep 11th attacks etc. then is it wrong to charge him for fighting in an army against who he percieved as an enemy?

Just some thoughts.

Ronn_Bman · 12-06-2001, 08:31 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Scholarcs:
What other charges are there relating to the events? If he was not involved in terror, murder, sep 11th attacks etc. then is it wrong to charge him for fighting in an army against who he percieved as an enemy?

Just some thoughts.

If he took up arms, in defense of anyone, against the US he has violated the law.

I guess the most important thing to find out will be if he was voluntarily fighting the US effort after September 11th, or if he was caught "behind enemy lines".

12-06-2001, 02:47 PM

Like so many other young people this man must have been attracted to the taleban by its extremism. If he has commited crimes against humanity or murder or torture(a possiblity given the evil nature of the taleban) he should be punished for those. But otherwise he should be given help and counseling to help him fit back into normal society if that is his wish. He will bare shame,stigma and guilt for the rest of his days, to punish him purely for takeing up arms against the USA is hypocritical, to help and redeem him if such a thing is possible would be admirable.

Ronn_Bman · 12-06-2001, 03:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
Like so many other young people this man must have been attracted to the taleban by its extremism. If he has commited crimes against humanity or murder or torture(a possiblity given the evil nature of the taleban) he should be punished for those. But otherwise he should be given help and counseling to help him fit back into normal society if that is his wish. He will bare shame,stigma and guilt for the rest of his days, to punish him purely for takeing up arms against the USA is hypocritical, to help and redeem him if such a thing is possible would be admirable.

Taking up arms against your country has always been considered treason. I don't really see how trying someone for treason, if they have committed treason, is hypocritical?

We all make decisions in our lives, and we have to be responsible for our actions.

Nachtrafe · 12-06-2001, 08:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
Like so many other young people this man must have been attracted to the taleban by its extremism. If he has commited crimes against humanity or murder or torture(a possiblity given the evil nature of the taleban) he should be punished for those. But otherwise he should be given help and counseling to help him fit back into normal society if that is his wish. He will bare shame,stigma and guilt for the rest of his days, to punish him purely for takeing up arms against the USA is hypocritical, to help and redeem him if such a thing is possible would be admirable.

"Shame"? "Stigmata"? How about dancing on the end of a rope for being a traitor to his country? Give me a break! "he should be given help and counseling to help him fit back into normal society " Wrong! He CHOSE which society he wanted to be a part of. Let him rot in a Northern Alliance prison with all of his Taliban 'brethren'.

Besides, the matter may be wholly academic. According to Title VIII, Section 1481 of the U.S. Code, which provides the legal basis for effectively renouncing U.S. citizenship, all someone has to do is take up arms with an army or armed forces that are actively engaged in hostilities against the US.(And no, I didn't look that up myself. GO HERE if you are interested. And no, I dont want to hear anything about 'bias' in my source. Legal code is legal code.)

So, since Mr bin Walker effectively renounced his citizenship, he can be tried by either the tribunals Bush has set up, or , like I said earlier, left to the tender mercies of the NA with the other Taliban soldiers. Personally, I have absolutely no sympathy for the man. Given my preference, I would see him made into an example. But then...I'm a vindictive sort of guy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ronn_Bman · 12-06-2001, 09:21 PM

Nach, your sig pic isn't showing up?

Scholarcs · 12-06-2001, 11:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
If he took up arms, in defense of anyone, against the US he has violated the law.

Yes, but he was fighting against the northern alliance, not against the US.

Nachtrafe · 12-07-2001, 12:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
Nach, your sig pic isn't showing up?

Yeah...it comes and goes. Crappy bandwidth on my stupid provider. And I host tons of sig and avatar pics. I'm thinking of changing providers. Its rather irritating. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Garnet FalconDance · 12-07-2001, 07:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Scholarcs:

Yes, but he was fighting against the northern alliance, not against the US.

trying to follow Scholarcs' reasoning here

And the Northern Alliance was allied with *whom* fighting against the Taliban, the group to which this individual swore his allegiance?!?

12-08-2001, 05:17 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Nachtrafe:

"Shame"? "Stigmata"? How about dancing on the end of a rope for being a traitor to his country? ...I'm a vindictive sort of guy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The united states has encouraged other people to be traitors to their countries before(Like people in russia), therefore to punish someone for being a traitor to USA looks rather like hypocracy and slective morality. Also to punish someone for this kind of thing is an outdated,petty and vindictive thing to do, it is no better than one would expect from the taleban or northan alliance. However to help this person and to allow them to perhaps live a normal life,(if they have not comminted genuine crimes)would be an action truly in the spirit of liberal humanism and kindness, why should he and his family suffer when so many already have. Why not let something positive come out of this dreadful matter?

12-06-2001, 12:39 AM	#11
Scholarcs Red Dragon Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Age: 39 Posts: 1,557	What other charges are there relating to the events? If he was not involved in terror, murder, sep 11th attacks etc. then is it wrong to charge him for fighting in an army against who he percieved as an enemy? Just some thoughts. __________________ <br />\"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five\" - Groucho Marx<br />Member of the ORT Clan. <br />\"Some birds are not meant to be caged because their feathers are too bright\"<br />Ma bouche sera la bouche des malheurs qui n\'ont point de bouche, ma voix, la liberté de celles qui s\'affaissent au cachot du désespoir. - Aimé Césaire<br />La plus perdue de toutes les journées est celle où l\'on n\'a pas ri. - Sébastien Roch Nicolas

12-06-2001, 08:31 AM	#12
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	quote: Originally posted by Scholarcs: What other charges are there relating to the events? If he was not involved in terror, murder, sep 11th attacks etc. then is it wrong to charge him for fighting in an army against who he percieved as an enemy? Just some thoughts. If he took up arms, in defense of anyone, against the US he has violated the law. I guess the most important thing to find out will be if he was voluntarily fighting the US effort after September 11th, or if he was caught "behind enemy lines". __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

12-06-2001, 03:57 PM	#14
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	quote: Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Like so many other young people this man must have been attracted to the taleban by its extremism. If he has commited crimes against humanity or murder or torture(a possiblity given the evil nature of the taleban) he should be punished for those. But otherwise he should be given help and counseling to help him fit back into normal society if that is his wish. He will bare shame,stigma and guilt for the rest of his days, to punish him purely for takeing up arms against the USA is hypocritical, to help and redeem him if such a thing is possible would be admirable. Taking up arms against your country has always been considered treason. I don't really see how trying someone for treason, if they have committed treason, is hypocritical? We all make decisions in our lives, and we have to be responsible for our actions. __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

12-06-2001, 08:49 PM	#15
Nachtrafe Red Wizard of Thay Join Date: August 9, 2001 Location: Upstate NY, USA Age: 53 Posts: 889	quote: Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Like so many other young people this man must have been attracted to the taleban by its extremism. If he has commited crimes against humanity or murder or torture(a possiblity given the evil nature of the taleban) he should be punished for those. But otherwise he should be given help and counseling to help him fit back into normal society if that is his wish. He will bare shame,stigma and guilt for the rest of his days, to punish him purely for takeing up arms against the USA is hypocritical, to help and redeem him if such a thing is possible would be admirable. "Shame"? "Stigmata"? How about dancing on the end of a rope for being a traitor to his country? Give me a break! "he should be given help and counseling to help him fit back into normal society " Wrong! He CHOSE which society he wanted to be a part of. Let him rot in a Northern Alliance prison with all of his Taliban 'brethren'. Besides, the matter may be wholly academic. According to Title VIII, Section 1481 of the U.S. Code, which provides the legal basis for effectively renouncing U.S. citizenship, all someone has to do is take up arms with an army or armed forces that are actively engaged in hostilities against the US.(And no, I didn't look that up myself. GO HERE if you are interested. And no, I dont want to hear anything about 'bias' in my source. Legal code is legal code.) So, since Mr bin Walker effectively renounced his citizenship, he can be tried by either the tribunals Bush has set up, or , like I said earlier, left to the tender mercies of the NA with the other Taliban soldiers. Personally, I have absolutely no sympathy for the man. Given my preference, I would see him made into an example. But then...I'm a vindictive sort of guy. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ ~~OFFICIAL BOYTOY OF CLOUDY'S CAFE....WELL...OK...JUST CLOUDY!~~ "May the wings of liberty never lose a feather!"

12-06-2001, 09:21 PM	#16
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	Nach, your sig pic isn't showing up? __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

12-06-2001, 02:47 PM	#13
Dramnek_Ulk Guest Posts: n/a	Like so many other young people this man must have been attracted to the taleban by its extremism. If he has commited crimes against humanity or murder or torture(a possiblity given the evil nature of the taleban) he should be punished for those. But otherwise he should be given help and counseling to help him fit back into normal society if that is his wish. He will bare shame,stigma and guilt for the rest of his days, to punish him purely for takeing up arms against the USA is hypocritical, to help and redeem him if such a thing is possible would be admirable.

12-06-2001, 11:37 PM	#17
Scholarcs Red Dragon Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Age: 39 Posts: 1,557	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: If he took up arms, in defense of anyone, against the US he has violated the law. Yes, but he was fighting against the northern alliance, not against the US. __________________ <br />\"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five\" - Groucho Marx<br />Member of the ORT Clan. <br />\"Some birds are not meant to be caged because their feathers are too bright\"<br />Ma bouche sera la bouche des malheurs qui n\'ont point de bouche, ma voix, la liberté de celles qui s\'affaissent au cachot du désespoir. - Aimé Césaire<br />La plus perdue de toutes les journées est celle où l\'on n\'a pas ri. - Sébastien Roch Nicolas

12-07-2001, 12:57 AM	#18
Nachtrafe Red Wizard of Thay Join Date: August 9, 2001 Location: Upstate NY, USA Age: 53 Posts: 889	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Nach, your sig pic isn't showing up? Yeah...it comes and goes. Crappy bandwidth on my stupid provider. And I host tons of sig and avatar pics. I'm thinking of changing providers. Its rather irritating. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ ~~OFFICIAL BOYTOY OF CLOUDY'S CAFE....WELL...OK...JUST CLOUDY!~~ "May the wings of liberty never lose a feather!"

12-07-2001, 07:56 AM	#19
Garnet FalconDance Mephistopheles Join Date: August 30, 2001 Location: deep within the sylvan splendor.... Age: 61 Posts: 1,443	quote: Originally posted by Scholarcs: Yes, but he was fighting against the northern alliance, not against the US. trying to follow Scholarcs' reasoning here And the Northern Alliance was allied with whom fighting against the Taliban, the group to which this individual swore his allegiance?!? __________________ "Nature tells every secret once." Ralph Waldo Emerson

12-08-2001, 05:17 AM	#20
Dramnek_Ulk Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Nachtrafe: "Shame"? "Stigmata"? How about dancing on the end of a rope for being a traitor to his country? ...I'm a vindictive sort of guy. [img]smile.gif[/img] The united states has encouraged other people to be traitors to their countries before(Like people in russia), therefore to punish someone for being a traitor to USA looks rather like hypocracy and slective morality. Also to punish someone for this kind of thing is an outdated,petty and vindictive thing to do, it is no better than one would expect from the taleban or northan alliance. However to help this person and to allow them to perhaps live a normal life,(if they have not comminted genuine crimes)would be an action truly in the spirit of liberal humanism and kindness, why should he and his family suffer when so many already have. Why not let something positive come out of this dreadful matter?

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