In response to 'No More Sarcasm'

[Memnoch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


The whole point of debate is to air different and often conflicting views, and learn more about each other in the process. I've had some great interactions with people on here that I've disagreed with intensly, - we've even made 'friends'!! via email. That's pretty positive, if you ask me.

---

I have no issue with that. And I'm sure you did that by respecting the other person's right to have an opinion - doubtlessly they debated with you passionately, blood was spilled, but they eventually won your respect?

My point is, other people who come here to post also deserve that same respect, even if they lack the debating skills or thick skin you have. They are not as quick with a witty, sarcastic comeback and so they feel like they've been humiliated. It's taken them a lot of courage to post and the last thing they want is for someone to put them down. I am here to protect the rights of THOSE people.

Disagree by all means - but don't put people down in the process is what I'm saying. If you THINK the way you phrase something will put someone down, don't say it. What do you have to lose by doing so? You can still put your point across.

[Ryanamur]

SC and F, how are you both doing? You know I'm an anti-war and I've been treated very fairly a while back when I attacked the mods during the Skywalker affair!

When Mem talks about sarcasm, I have a feeling that he means sarcasm directed at people. This constitutes an attack on the individual and has nothing to do with the debate. Personnally (and I'll see if Mem agrees with me on that one) I don't see any problem with factual or opiniated sarcasm. The one that is solely directed at a fact or an opinion.

BTW SC, I don't think that you'll be banned or suspended for your post. I've done wayyyyyyyyy worst [img]smile.gif[/img] Also, when it comes to Yorick, we don't know what's been done behind the scenes. Quite frankly, I'd rather it not be done on the forum.

[Kothoses]

Mem as a moderator and as a person u have my respect......but after reading over recent events and the events leading up to the start of the recent BAnning Spree I have to ask what the hell is going on over here?

As a owner of a reasonably successful forum my self and former admin over at the MH I know quite intricatly what it takes to run a forum, and I cannot honestly say that telling people how or what to post in a SERIOUS DEBATING forum is the way to go about it, ok thats just my opinion but I have been asked for it by a few of my memebers.

I am not posting against the admin and mods here, but I think that opressings peoples ability to express them selves and get their point across because your worried about offending the flower power brigade is detrimental to the whole spirit of this section.

There is a fine line between freedom of speech and being plain insulting, but it is ten times more insulting to be told I have to bite my tongue because some one cant take it in the adult world.

People dont come online to babysit each other they dont come into a Serious discussion forum to be told they cant post how they feel because it may upset some Daisy chain spinning types.

I say this with the greatest of respect for this community, and because I dont want to see you go downhill over this.

Just my opinion

Kothoses of the CRC
http://www.xsorbit.com/users2/newworlds/index.cgi

[Fljotsdale]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Memnoch:


Fljotsdale, have you ever considered the fact that one person's wine could be another's poison? We have to make sure we have a forum that enables EVERYONE to participate - not just those who think they have "backbone". This type of confrontational nature in posting only appeared when this forum came up. We went through an entire year of debating issues but the tone and manner was friendly and congenial throughout - like friends around a campfire. Now it's feeling more and more like work to me, to be honest - put your flak helmet on and jump in, as any opinion you put forward will be kicked back at you twice as strong.

I've been wondering why there's so few people posting in this forum yet the overwhelming majority of complaints we receive is from here. With the response to a very reasonable request I posted - to not use sarcasm to disrespect and demean others - I have the answer I was looking for. Maybe you "regulars" have been so used to the way you treat each other in here that you assume that you can treat everyone else the same way.

Is THIS the kind of forum you want? One where only a select few can participate? Sorry, but this is not going to happen. It's just not worth the time and energy for us to maintain it and settle disputes between people on a regular basis. I'm a moderator, not a judge.

---

You make some very valid points here, Memnoch. But, as SC said, many don't bother with this forum BECAUSE they don't feel free to express honest opinions. Both sides! The oversensitive and the thick-skinned alike!
As you know, I LOVE debate, and vigorous debate has me wriggling with delight! But, like you, I can't stand animosity. People like Ronn_Bman are a pure joy to me because I can disagree strongly with him (I usually do!), but it is done in a spirit of friendship. We have even exchanged sarcasm on occasion and neither of us has been upset/offended by it. He is a great guy. Not oversensitive, not thick-skinned. Nice. Normal. We could have great arguments together, lol! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
The main problem with some people is that they see such argument and are so sensitive that they take offence. It is to these sensitive ones that I say 'get out of the kitchen'.
I am not suggesting a forum for only the thick-skinned - far from it! - but if some people find vigorous debate offensive, they really should not join in. There are many threads, discussing many issues, that rarely get heated, and they would feel more at home there.

Its like guests at a party - they always break down into little groups to talk about the things that interest them. Some people wander from group to group and join in everywhere, some stay with one group or another, some groups merge, split up, make new groups. Some of those groups get heated, so some people wouldn't dream of joining them, but others jump at the chance for a lively argument. Some in the group arguing go join a more peaceful group until the shouting stops.....
The host just makes sure that no fights break out and keeps the booze away from people who have had too much!

Just like in here. [img]smile.gif[/img] Yes?

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Memnoch:


I have no problem with you disagreeing with me at all. Your objection has been noted. I'm here to enforce the rules, not to enforce my opinion on you. I'm asking for one thing - respect for your fellow posters going forward from now (I don't care what happened in the past). So no sarcasm that demeans people or their opinion, ESPECIALLY if you don't know how they will react to it. Fair?

---

No sarcasm that demeans people - the difficulty arises in that a comment that I do not feel to be at all personally demeaning to a person, may be taken as such by that person. I cannot know what is going on inside another person's head. If you mean 'intentionally' demeaning, yes, I can agree with that.

With regard to 'demeaning' people's opinions - I don't think I can agree to that, Memnoch. I have seen opinions posted on here, - like the one that wanted to see Afghani civilians six feet under - that I personally feel demeaned the person posting them. I reserve the right to disagree forcefully with an opinion. I also reserve the right to use sarcasm in my disagreement.

I also want to see people who disagree me retain the right to use sarcasm, should they so wish. Magness, to take an example, wrote me a post on the 'Aid' threat that is very disparaging about certain groups that he classes me as belonging to. That's just fine. I've written a reply that explains where I'm coming from, and hopefully corrects any misconceptions that he has (in my opinion.) He is free to respond as he wants. (This is NOT a complaint, Magness! Please don't stop being feisty and passionate about your beliefs on my account! Silly me, of course you wont.... [img]smile.gif[/img] )

[Memnoch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ryanamur:

When Mem talks about sarcasm, I have a feeling that he means sarcasm directed at people. This constitutes an attack on the individual and has nothing to do with the debate. Personnally (and I'll see if Mem agrees with me on that one) I don't see any problem with factual or opiniated sarcasm. The one that is solely directed at a fact or an opinion.

---

Ryanamur is dead right. I don't like people being smartasses at others' expense. That pisses other people off. Is that a clear enough way for me to put it?

O.K. and alrighty then, at the risk of losing my job, I have to take a minute to respond to all this.
It is my firm and unshakable belief that this forum needs to exist, and exist in a fashion that allows people to express themselves in such a way that they can get their points across. I agree wholeheartedly with the rules of this forum as put forth by Ziroc in the sign-up page. I also believe that sarcasm, as a tool of debate, has a valid place here. Sarcasm is a historically well-used and well-respected tool of debate, and its presence here is appropriate, as long as it is used correctly, and not as a personal attack.
I have seen examples of excellent debate on this forum, both with and without sarcasm, which respected the individuals involved.
I believe that any blanket ruling or ban on sarcasm would be an error, and would result in a poorer forum for everyone. I think this element should be approached and assessed on a case-by-case basis, in which wise it will be treated fairly and competently by the moderators.

[Ziroc]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
And I intend to continue saying so, in a voice that is authentically *MY OWN* rather than one that is imposed upon me. If I cannot post here on those terms, then so be it.

---

To add to Mem's GREAT reply, I just want you to remember:

You may speak your mind, but when your mind wishes to insult, demean or attack someone, THAT is when it's out of bounds, and we step in. Remember, I DO own this forum, and I allow A LOT, but just try to remember to act as you would as if you were in someone elses house.. You can get your word out without having sarcasm a part of it.

[Memnoch]

Koth and Aradia, welcome to Ironworks from CRC and MH. [img]smile.gif[/img] Your comments are more than welcome here, I've heard good things about Aradia and I know Koth. You guys might be missing my point, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my earlier posts.

I don't have a problem with sarcasm by itself, perhaps that was not clear in my title. What I don't want are people acting like smartasses and taking potshots at other people by using sarcasm in a way that demeans them and belittles their opinion. It was SC's response to someone in this manner that precipitated this entire issue. We do not normally have a serious discussion forum here for that very reason - sarcasm gets misconstrued, feelings get hurt, anger and hostility grows, and so on. This is what we are trying to avoid.

This is NOT a debating forum where there's a winner or loser, this is a gamingforum with an area temporarily dedicated to the War on Terror where people can share their views. Our standards may be more stringent than with other forums you have been accustomed to, but that's because we want every single one of our members to feel that they can participate. That doesn't make us better - it's just the way we've decided to manage things. I hope this makes things clearer for you.

Anyone can disagree with the rules, by the way - just as long as they're adhered to. Respect for others. That's all we're asking for. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ziroc:



To add to Mem's GREAT reply, I just want you to remember:

You may speak your mind, but when your mind wishes to insult, demean or attack someone, THAT is when it's out of bounds, and we step in. Remember, I DO own this forum, and I allow A LOT, but just try to remember to act as you would as if you were in someone elses house.. You can get your word out without having sarcasm a part of it.

---

I dont insult and attack people, Ziroc.

I disagree, sometimes vehemently, sometimes sarcastically, with some of the opinions that some people express. Sarcasm is a historically valid way of making a point, as has been pointed out by several people, and is a debating tool used by *many* on this forum, both pro and anti-war.