I'm sort of in a state of shock....

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Mark, I don't believe it's a question of true/false. I think it's more a question of language and culture. If I do not know what a skyscraper is, I cannot give you a word for it. If I must translate it I may use the first word that comes anywhere close, in this case "castle". I don't mean to say that the Afghani people are all fully aware of world politics and news, but that they may be more aware than that one incident and translation indicate. Not having sophisticated plumbing and grocery chains does NOT mean that they are backwards intellectually and I think it would be a bad thing to assume that from a short interpreted interview . Cloudy

The WTC could have been described as a 'bastion' of capitalism. The Twin 'Towers' (a very castlic name) were the heart of the city.



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[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: I've just been listening to the radio and a reporter was talking to Afghani citizens in Northern Afghan. He was trying to find out what they thought of the bombing of their country and the reasons for it, and whether they had heard US broadcasts on a new radio station. (None of them had). Anyway. He asked if they knew what had happened in the US to provoke the bombing. Most didn't know, but knew it was to do with bin Laden. Two people seemed to have some idea: One said bin Laden 'broke a castle and killed many people'. The other said he had 'killed many people and their animals'. I knew they did not have anything like a Western culture, but I thought they had SOME access to the media! This was not a village in the back of beyond but a sizeable town! But they are seeing us with castles and livestock - like the middle ages! Like themselves. Guys - these people shouldn't be subjected to the might of the Western world! Their leaders might know what is going on, and Bin Laden certainly does, but the ordinary Afghanis are poor peasants still living in middle-ages conditions for the most part, with absolutely no comprehension of what is going on or the reasons for it. Oh people - I am in a state of shock here. The pictures you see on tv don't tell you half as much about Afghan as those few words spoken by those two men.

It is terribly sad that these people don't know what's going on. It's equally sad they have no idea what their government is doing. Their government, who is responsible for them, knows exactly what's going on though. They have brought this on themselves.

We are not bringing the might of the Western World down on the innocent, but unfortunately, sometimes they get caught in the middle. We can't be expected not to attack because they might not know what their government has been doing. We can't say, "ok terrorists, we're coming for you, so stay away from those innocent civilians because we don't want to hurt them." The terrorist hide in the midst of the innocent because they know we are squimish about it. They couldn't care less for those who suffer needlessly. They couldn't care less about their own countrymen.

You may not agree with the following analogy, but think about it...

...A man is walking down the street, minding his own business. Suddenly, the man beside him purposely shoves him into the street into the path of a fast moving bus. The bus hits and kills the man.

...The man did not deserve to die, he wasn't doing anything wrong. The bus driver didn't want to kill the man, and did everything he could to avoid the impact, but in truth, there was nothing he could do.

...The man who shoved the innocent says, "I didn't do it, but I'm glad it happened."

...In the short view, the bus driver killed the man because he drove the bus into him. The impact caused the man's death. But is he responsible for the death?


****This is completely different (in form not view) from my original response, which I lost because the "page not found error." AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! That's happened twice today!*****


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"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-26-2001).]

[Cloudbringer]

Ronn,I find that if I'm typing a long post, it's good to highlight and right click on 'copy' JUST in case that error kicks up and you lose the post. Then you can start over and 'paste' what you had! I used to do it to every post way back when the old blue board got unstable.

Sorry, F, not meaning to go off topic, that's a good piece of advice for all on this forum, though, because I've noticed the average post is longer than most in other forums!

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."



[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 10-26-2001).]

[Prime2U]

It seems to me that just 20 years ago there were very bright women with college educations in Afghanistan who were very up to date on current events, not the middle ages type at all. There are a lot of motor vehicles and things in Afghanistan, and before the Taliban took over TVs were a fairly common thing. Yes, the Taliban has effectively reversed the modernisation of the country, but I don't think to that extent. So I would have to say i agree with Cloudy and it's likely a translation thing. It still saddens me that the people are so kept inthe dark about events though. Their government cares nothing for them

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Ronn,I find that if I'm typing a long post, it's good to highlight and right click on 'copy' JUST in case that error kicks up and you lose the post. Then you can start over and 'paste' what you had! I used to do it to every post way back when the old blue board got unstable. Sorry, F, not meaning to go off topic, that's a good piece of advice for all on this forum, though, because I've noticed the average post is longer than most in other forums! Cloudy

I actually just posted something similar in GD

Great minds, and all....



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"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

[Fljotsdale]

Thanks for all your responses people! Sorry I wasn't hear to join in, but I had to go to rehearsal right after i posted.
Anyway - too many posts to go through and answer individually, so I'll just mention poits I remember from them, ok?

The translation thing - its ok, Cloudy - I don't speak Afghani! Anyway - I can see it is a definite possibility. However the fact that the majority seemed totally ignorant of events and reasons says a lot, I think.
I didn't think the 'castle' was the WTC - I thought it was the Pentagon, since it is the headquarters of the military, like a castle. But who knows? The man may not have known himself.

But the thing that impacted on me so much was that WE see THEM - but most of THEM do not see US. So they imagine us with a lifestyle similar to theirs, only richer. Regardless of whether 'castle' was a poor translation or not - and I should think the translator was very familiar with English and Afghani (he sounded very fluent) - the fact that they believed we had lost 'many animals', such as the herds they have themselves, would suggest that do not see images of the way we live and imagine us as like them (sorry for the convoluted sentence!). I found that a shock. It was like someone hitting me on the back of the head with a blackjack. It screwed me up.

Yes, some of them know perfectly well what is going on - but the general populace.

The Afghani women's group - yes they are still going strong. Some are in Britain at the moment - I caught the tail-end of an interview with some of them on radio a day or so back. Most are still in Afghan though, but how they are getting on is anyone's guess. Pity I didn't get all the interview.

We ARE hitting the ordinary Afghans, though, even if we don't want to. An aid depot was targetted today, destroying food and tents and stuff. And we are targetting their infrastructure, such as it is. Such as the Russians and their own internal conflicts have left. And we still don't have bin Laden. And the Taliban captured and killed someone - cant remember his name - that the US hoped would rally people into an internal resistance and help form a new Afghan govt. The bombing isn't working. It is killing and doing damage for nothing so far as i can see at the moment.

Sorry if I didn't remember everything you posted, people! I don't agree with all of it - surprise, lol! - but some of it helped me get my feelings in better perspective, and it was all interesting. Thanks!

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Here be Dragons!
Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

"If I say something to you and it can be taken two ways, and one of those ways upsets you...I meant the other one."

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Yes, some of them know perfectly well what is going on - but the general populace. We ARE hitting the ordinary Afghans, though, even if we don't want to. An aid depot was targeted today, destroying food and tents and stuff. And we are targeting their infrastructure, such as it is. Such as the Russians and their own internal conflicts have left. And we still don't have bin Laden. And the Taliban captured and killed someone - cant remember his name - that the US hoped would rally people into an internal resistance and help form a new Afghan govt. The bombing isn't working. It is killing and doing damage for nothing so far as I can see at the moment.

Yes we are hitting ordinary Afghans. Many innocents will die on both sides, but those who, instead of worrying about feeding their people, chose to make war, or ally themselves with those who make war made the choice. The loss of a single life is tragic, but a government that would willingly submit its population to possible death to defend a terrorist is criminal on an international level.

As to the aid depot, I’m a bit confused. I haven’t heard about this, unless you’re talking about the Red Cross station? Either way, there is a huge difference between hitting, and actually targeting something for destruction.

Today is the 20th day of bombing. This is a relatively short time in the context of war. The term “overnight” comes to mind. It was said from the beginning, that this will be a long fight.

There is a quicker way: OLD SCHOOL. There was a time, not so long ago, that a nation’s military used every weapon, at their disposal, to kill the enemy. This included, but was not limited to, killing everyone and destroying everything that was in the way of a goal….women and children did not matter…being a conspirator or an innocent made no difference, if you were “associated” with the enemy.

If we killed everyone in our way, we could speed this up considerably, but we don’t want to target the innocents, nor allow them to be purposely killed to quicken the process. We regret the loss of life , and we do everything at our disposal to protect the innocent, but…

At no other time in history have innocents been given such consideration. This doesn't make innocent deaths any less tragic, but nothing can reduce the tragedy of untimely death.
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"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-26-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Point taken, Ronn Bman. I don't have to like it!

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Here be Dragons!
Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

"If I say something to you and it can be taken two ways, and one of those ways upsets you...I meant the other one."

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Point taken, Ronn Bman. I don't have to like it!

A "point taken" by Fljotsdale is a very impressive feat for me


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"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: A "point taken" by Fljotsdale is a very impressive feat for me

Are you implying I'm stubborn and unreasonable? Perish the thought!

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Here be Dragons!
Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

"If I say something to you and it can be taken two ways, and one of those ways upsets you...I meant the other one."