On Cowardice

[kiwidoc]

re Suicide is the cowards way out

Sorry if this is a little off the orginal topic but I can't let this go unasnwered

As someone who has more knowledge and more experince of suicide attempts and actual suicides than almost all of you here I would like to explode this myth.

* Suicide is seen as the only option to deal with overwhelming pain, whether emotional or physical. People who try to die genuinely believe there is no other way to end this pain.

* Emotional pain can easily be as bad as physical pain.

* People who suffer severe emotional pain due to psychiatric illness aren't weak, oversensitive or somehow second rate any more than someone with diabetes or asthma is. These illnesses have a biological basis (inheritance and past damage) and an environmental trigger - and psychiatric disorders are just the same.

* Judgemental attitudes like this are VERY offensive to people who have been there but survived.


Let me tell you the stories of some of my patients who have suicided. The 27 year old man who had voices abusing and reviling him 24 hours a day since the age of 17, and no treatment helped in the slightest. The 75 year old who still had nightmares about his time in Dachau and the guilt of still being alive finally overwhelmed him. The 40 year old man who crashed his van and heard his son die next to him, and who's head injury left him with unbelievably severe muscle spasms that did not respond to treatment. The 16year old girl whos father chained her to the bed and raped her after burning cigarettes on her leg as far back as she could remember, she finally gathers up the courage and runs to grandad - who raped her as well.

If you think you could have dealt with this level of pain with bugger all support and no sign of away out then youtr imagination is a bit lacking.


------------------


MYTH DRANNOR http://vampirelord.proboards.com/ind...er=vampirelord

[Yorick]

Originally posted by kiwidoc: As someone who has more knowledge and more experince of suicide attempts and actual suicides than almost all of you here I would like to explode this myth.

Really? And how are you quantifying that statement.

You know who the real victims of suicide are? Those that remain who knew the suicidee. I have seen cycles of it. A mother, then her son, then an attempt by the sons best friend and her mother. Each persons response to the tragedy is valid, and you are in no position to call my personal observation a "myth". I stand by what I say. Life is a struggle. Life is not easy. Happiness however is a perceptional choice, made more difficult under certain situations. It remains a choice, and however difficult, it takes bravery to conquer the elements and press on. We use the words "fighting for survival" for a reason. You may combat this plague your way, but don't go criticising mine.


-------------------------------

Dio. I answered your question. Bush is an economist. He is not asking others to be economists in his stead. People do not follow him because he is a military strategist or great warrior.

Bin Laden is a soldier, a perpetrator and initiator of violent acts. Very big difference. People follow him because his is a military strategist. He is asking others to go and do what he will not however.


------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by kiwidoc: re Suicide is the cowards way out Sorry if this is a little off the orginal topic but I can't let this go unasnwered As someone who has more knowledge and more experince of suicide attempts and actual suicides than almost all of you here I would like to explode this myth. * Suicide is seen as the only option to deal with overwhelming pain, whether emotional or physical. People who try to die genuinely believe there is no other way to end this pain. * Emotional pain can easily be as bad as physical pain. * People who suffer severe emotional pain due to psychiatric illness aren't weak, oversensitive or somehow second rate any more than someone with diabetes or asthma is. These illnesses have a biological basis (inheritance and past damage) and an environmental trigger - and psychiatric disorders are just the same. * Judgemental attitudes like this are VERY offensive to people who have been there but survived. Let me tell you the stories of some of my patients who have suicided. The 27 year old man who had voices abusing and reviling him 24 hours a day since the age of 17, and no treatment helped in the slightest. The 75 year old who still had nightmares about his time in Dachau and the guilt of still being alive finally overwhelmed him. The 40 year old man who crashed his van and heard his son die next to him, and who's head injury left him with unbelievably severe muscle spasms that did not respond to treatment. The 16year old girl whos father chained her to the bed and raped her after burning cigarettes on her leg as far back as she could remember, she finally gathers up the courage and runs to grandad - who raped her as well. If you think you could have dealt with this level of pain with bugger all support and no sign of away out then youtr imagination is a bit lacking.

Thanks for sharing this, Kiwidoc. Your experience of this is obviously far greater than mine, and I thank you for the additional insight you have provided.

------------------


Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Sir Taliesin]

I'll call them cowards, because rather than go after the people that did them "harm" (whatever the hell that is!). They went after 6000 innocent people that never saw it coming. That's the cowards way, to strike when the victims not looking. Then ran away. Their version of running away was choicing death. You will never hear me call that a couragous act. It was despicable and those men's names should never be allowed to be utter again!!!


------------------
Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

[250]

dude.... you guys!

what IS Bush? what IS Bin Laden?

Bush is the president of United States, he is shouldered with responsibility to protect his country men's right. he is to make decisions that would better the lives of American people

what about Bin Laden? does he have those responsibilities? all he did was ordering his man to smash commercial planes into populated areas. that is his sole purpose of life, huh?

the very act of hiding, (or retreat), from immediate danger is anything but cowardiance. when you see a gun man shooting on street, would you stand there? would you run to him and try to stop him? well, the best course of action is run for help, call polices and let the professionals handle the situation, correct?

Bush and Bin Laden can both take hides when danger presents, but one is purposefully determined action, and for better end, while another is for a selfish reaon. so who do you call cowardiance?

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-08-2001).]

[250]

Originally posted by kiwidoc: re Suicide is the cowards way out Sorry if this is a little off the orginal topic but I can't let this go unasnwered As someone who has more knowledge and more experince of suicide attempts and actual suicides than almost all of you here I would like to explode this myth. * Suicide is seen as the only option to deal with overwhelming pain, whether emotional or physical. People who try to die genuinely believe there is no other way to end this pain. * Emotional pain can easily be as bad as physical pain. * People who suffer severe emotional pain due to psychiatric illness aren't weak, oversensitive or somehow second rate any more than someone with diabetes or asthma is. These illnesses have a biological basis (inheritance and past damage) and an environmental trigger - and psychiatric disorders are just the same. * Judgemental attitudes like this are VERY offensive to people who have been there but survived. Let me tell you the stories of some of my patients who have suicided. The 27 year old man who had voices abusing and reviling him 24 hours a day since the age of 17, and no treatment helped in the slightest. The 75 year old who still had nightmares about his time in Dachau and the guilt of still being alive finally overwhelmed him. The 40 year old man who crashed his van and heard his son die next to him, and who's head injury left him with unbelievably severe muscle spasms that did not respond to treatment. The 16year old girl whos father chained her to the bed and raped her after burning cigarettes on her leg as far back as she could remember, she finally gathers up the courage and runs to grandad - who raped her as well. If you think you could have dealt with this level of pain with bugger all support and no sign of away out then youtr imagination is a bit lacking.

suicide is an easy way out...
if you can just hang on another moment longer, blessings just might come, you know?

my best wishs for everyone who is going through a crisis, be brave

[Yorick]

Originally posted by kiwidoc: [BLet me tell you the stories of some of my patients who have suicided. The 27 year old man who had voices abusing and reviling him 24 hours a day since the age of 17, and no treatment helped in the slightest. The 75 year old who still had nightmares about his time in Dachau and the guilt of still being alive finally overwhelmed him. The 40 year old man who crashed his van and heard his son die next to him, and who's head injury left him with unbelievably severe muscle spasms that did not respond to treatment. The 16year old girl whos father chained her to the bed and raped her after burning cigarettes on her leg as far back as she could remember, she finally gathers up the courage and runs to grandad - who raped her as well. [/B]

Let me tell you the story of a close friend of mine, now in a position of leadership in a church and the picture of mental health, grace and serene beauty.

As a child her father took her took Satanic rituals where she was tied to a stake, burnt and raped. Raped in Satanic rites that her father participated in, ignoring the screams of mercy from his daughter.

She ended up becoming old enough to leave home and hit the streets escaping in drugs and the surrounding lifestyle in an effort to avoid the pain of the situation. Thankfully she ended up one night in a church, and from there started a road to restoration and healing that totally replaced the mental trauma of her childhood. She totally credits God, is married, has a child, teaches christian worship and blesses those who hear her music in their soul. Her testimony blew me away.

The point is for every one of your "patients" who didn't make it, there is one of my students, friends or co-worshippers who did. I had a friend who was raped by her brother as a child yet they both overcame the situation as adults. I have friends who have been addicted to all sorts of drugs, alcohol and the like. Friends who have gone through divorce, loss of child and the like.

It's life. My own life... someone the other day suggested I live a charmed life, yet I've walked through pits I'd hope none have to face, of such extreme emotional pressure.

We all have our pit, our crazy period, our period of extreme darkness. Some don't make it, some have to endure ridiculous odds. It takes bravery to face these and simply put one foot in front of the other. But the life lived when the other side is reached is one of comparitively immeasurable joy.

----------------------------------


------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[John D Harris]

Preach it Sir T!
I'll tell you where I'm getting it from! In the Pentagon wreakage a stewardess (flight attendant for the PC crowd) was found with her hands tied behind her back and her throat cut. Real "brave" to attack unarmed people, with the belief that you will get rewarded in the afterlife. BRAVE was the actions of the people on flight 73 that fought for the chance to live, unarmed people against armed people! We will never know if they thought they would be rewarded for their attions on that day, but given American soceity I doubt that thought entered their minds.

------------------
Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 10-08-2001).]

[Yorick]

Dio, I have been under the impression that the Illuminati are a Satanic organisation. In light of hearing personal stories such as my friends above I have a disgust of such organisations, and their gurus LaVey and Crowley.

This may explain some of the hostility I have shown when you quoted LaVey, and may highlight the difficulty I have in dealing with your clan name - however much in jest it may or may not be.

If it is not I stand corrected, and shall go research it myself. If it is, you know where I stand, and may gain insight into certain things.

------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: Dio, I have been under the impression that the Illuminati are a Satanic organisation. In light of hearing personal stories such as my friends above I have a disgust of such organisations, and their gurus LaVey and Crowley. This may explain some of the hostility I have shown when you quoted LaVey, and may highlight the difficulty I have in dealing with your clan name - however much in jest it may or may not be. If it is not I stand corrected, and shall go research it myself. If it is, you know where I stand, and may gain insight into certain things.

Okay. Well, you are quite mistaken. "Illuminati" is just a generic term referring to any number of religious organizations who claim some sort of special enlightenment, as any dictionary will show you. I have never heard of a satanist group calling themselves "illuminati", but certainly it is possible, as it is possible that virtually any type of religious group could use that term.

This is kind of off the subject, but why do you think Crowley was a Satanist anyway? Certainly LaVey was, but I don't think Crowley was, iirc.