Platoon defies orders in Iraq

[Felix The Assassin]

Not too long ago somebody had a [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] about the NG/Reserves.

My questions, and sure are some of the same that the 15-6 panel will ask.

1. Who maintains these vehicles? The unit!
2. How did these vehicles fall into deadlines? The unit!
3. How do we fix it. WE MAKE them do the right thing 24/7. Iraq is not a club med trip, it's a freaking hot zone!


It goes back to the mentality *they* (Yes THEY, not WE) have. After working with the NG and preparing them for their deployment, I can fully understand this issue.

Cerek, good post. However, most people, and especially R/C soldiers, families and communities do not understand what you wrote. It's foreign to them. They work one weekend a month, two weeks a year, maybe some community work, fight fires, etc, go to college on the government's dime or upto 50k worth anyhow. Possilby do airport duty. But my goodness, now they have to go and support the Army in Iraq! Sheez! [/rant]

It must be pointed out, that the womans assertions that they were being held against their will.....while technically accurate, also tend to make things sound worse than they obviously could have been....if she were "REALLY" being abused and held against her will, I doubt very much they would have allowed her access to a phone with the ability to reach the states.....

I don't know the details but I do know,

A. The nightly news played a recorded message from some girl who talked about sensitve mission details over an open line. She can be Court Martialed for that offense alone....it is a SERIOUS breech of protocol...and could have put others at risk.

B. If they don't have a long string of written reports to their chain of command about the equipment's defects and deficiency they will be hard pressed to prove their case...why did it "all of a sudden" become an issue.

C. If the equipment and vehicles were so bad, how is it that the other team members were able to complete the mission?


While I think the evidence released so far weighs heavily against the 19 members who refused, Im waiting till the whole set of facts gets released before I judge them on their actions.

Troops do have the right to protest orders...but there are right ways and wrong ways to go about it, and some times, being in the Military means you have to put your ass out there where it is very likely to be shot off.....if you cannot face that fact..then don't sign up for the NG or any Military branch, because you give up the right to protect your precious behind at all cost when you swear your oath....and joining the guard and taking the money and the benefits means you MAY be called on to put yourself into a deathtrap.

[wellard]

First off. I live in wasp white safe suburbs and have never had to put my 'ass on the line' for nothing. So I will leave comments to those who have and do.

Are the following comments true? Is this a beat up to make things worse than they are? and info please, what does deadlines mean in this context?


"Aviation regiments have complained of being forced to fly dangerous missions over Iraq with outdated night-vision goggles and old missile-avoidance systems. Stories of troops' families purchasing body armor because the military didn't provide them with adequate equipment have been included in recent presidential debates.

Patricia McCook said her husband, a staff sergeant, understands well the severity of disobeying orders. But he did not feel comfortable taking his soldiers on another trip.

"He told me that three of the vehicles they were to use were deadlines ... not safe to go in a hotbed like that," Patricia McCook said. Hill said the trucks her daughter's unit was driving could not top 40 mph

[Night Stalker]

First off, failure to follow orders, dereliction of duty, and mutiny are not able to be processed by Article 15 hearings (Non-Judicial Punishment) they must be handled by Article 32 procedings (Courts Martial). For one thing, while soldiers are not required to follow unlawful orders, only an Article 32 hearing can determine if the order was lawful or not.

Secondly, just because a mission is dangerous does not make it suicide or unlawful. They are frikken soldiers for Christ's sake!!!

Felix, I gotta both agree and disagree with you. Sure, if the vehicles were NMC, why where the troops not disciplened for poor maintenence? Did they fail their mission, by not keeping mission capable? Or were they not properly supplied.

But, NG soldiers are not always "second hand" soldiers. Often they do more with outdated equipment, less funding, and less training than the AC. For two years, prior to getting mobilized, we did not go to the ranges because there was no funding for ammo. WTF?

I do agree with you though about the "AT" mentality. It is a difficult hurdle to get over.

Remember one thing though ..... one of the best BDEs in the Army for Armored Gunnery is the 86th BDE .... a NG unit from the 42nd ID!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] They were recently given a Unit Citation for their service at NTC as OPFOR.

[aleph_null1]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Remember one thing though ..... one of the best BDEs in the Army for Armored Gunnery is the 86th BDE .... a NG unit from the 42nd ID!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] They were recently given a Unit Citation for their service at NTC as OPFOR.

I'm sorry, but that paragraph is awesome.

Did anybody besides Felix get past the "Remember one thing though ... " part?

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Felix, I gotta both agree and disagree with you. Sure, if the vehicles were NMC, why where the troops not disciplened for poor maintenence? Did they fail their mission, by not keeping mission capable? Or were they not properly supplied.

Very good point! Logistical re-supply could very well be the main contributing factor. However, I also wonder how the other element managed to accomplish the mission. One would think that a trans company would have about the same issues across the unit. I would also like to see their OR rating!

Remember one thing though ..... one of the best BDEs in the Army for Armored Gunnery is the 86th BDE .... a NG unit from the 42nd ID!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] They were recently given a Unit Citation for their service at NTC as OPFOR.

Outstanding!

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by wellard: "Aviation regiments have complained of being forced to fly dangerous missions over Iraq with outdated night-vision goggles and old missile-avoidance systems.

How do I address this 'politically'? Pilots are the Posh soldiers of the Army! They seem to think everything new is designed, and issued strictly for them. The new NVGs are for the 'Grunts' They are monocular, leaving one eye with normal vision. The Engineers have another new style, binocular type, which can adjust from normal observation to detail of reading a fine print. Pilots have the (OMG 5 yr old) 11 series modified. These allow them both night and normal vision, and attach to their really cool flight helmets. But lack the ability of super fine adjustment. One would think if a pilot needs to read with NVGs, something of a more serious nature might need his attention. Missile avoidance, I can not comment about.

Stories of troops' families purchasing body armor because the military didn't provide them with adequate equipment have been included in recent presidential debates.

Yes, and I don't want to talk about who did not vote yes for this. However, soldiers *SHOOTERS* received their RFI (Rapid Fielding Issue) prior to deaprture from Kuwait. Some soldiers, mainly NON-COMBATANTS *NON-SHOOTERS* did not receive IBA until later, these soldeirs were in positions OUT OF HARMS way, and used the 2nd gen flak vest. I believe currently all soldiers in theather have IBA at this time.

[ 10-17-2004, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Felix The Assassin ]

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: quote: Originally posted by wellard: "Aviation regiments have complained of being forced to fly dangerous missions over Iraq with outdated night-vision goggles and old missile-avoidance systems.

How do I address this 'politically'? Pilots are the Posh soldiers of the Army! They seem to think everything new is designed, and issued strictly for them. The new NVGs are for the 'Grunts' They are monocular, leaving one eye with normal vision. The Engineers have another new style, binocular type, which can adjust from normal observation to detail of reading a fine print. Pilots have the (OMG 5 yr old) 11 series modified. These allow them both night and normal vision, and attach to their really cool flight helmets. But lack the ability of super fine adjustment. One would think if a pilot needs to read with NVGs, something of a more serious nature might need his attention. Missile avoidance, I can not comment about.
[/QUOTE]Thanks for the enlightening explanation, Felix. Just goes to show how very easy it is to put a "spin" on a story like this since the general population has no real knowledge of the hardware being used.

The excerpt from the story made it sound like the pilots were using NVG's that were decades old rather than just 5 yrs old.

It's also interesting how the original article quoted had "clipped" or changed certain portions of the article from the one I read on MSN. For starters, they claimed an entire platoon had defied the orders rather than just one unit of a platoon. They did get the actual number of soldiers correct, though, so maybe it was just ignorance on their part as to how many soldiers make up a "platoon". It also failed to mention that other members of that platoon succeeded in completing the re-supply mission - presumably with the same "broken down equipment" the original 19 had access to. Instead, the first article seems to focus on soldiers being ill-equipped with shoddy equipment for fighting a war and the discontentment of some of the members deployed there.

Of course, FAR be it from me to suggest there could have been any "bias" involved in choosing which facts would remain and which ones would be cropped from the first article.

[ 10-18-2004, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Cerek ]

[Night Stalker]

Well, there is no such thing in the Army as "Shooters" and "NonShooters" anymore, as there is no such thing as a "Front Line" in Iraq. I do know from soldiers returning from Iraq that not all "Combat" troops even had the IBA to start with. But, that situation has been rectified and ALL soldiers receive the IBA as part of the RFI. "Combat" Troops still receive preferential treatment, though. I am not trying to disparage the Killers, but Log troops are more often exposed to harms way no a days than the Killers.

I can confirm Felix's sentiment about pilots - they are prima donnas. It's been awile since I've worked with the system, but the anit-missle system they have on Apaches and Black Hawks is more than enough to handle the guided threats in Theatre. The problem the pilots are facing is that often they are shot at with RPGs, unguided rockets. There is no warning system or defense against that, only alertness and manuvre.

My initial read on this situation is that these soldiers were feeling deep efects of combat stress. They were uneasy about being sent out close to nightfall, and were down right jittery because there would be no air cover (a luxury, not a requirement). They were scared and used any excuse and played the "Safety Card" to not do their job.

I've had troops play that card many times for something they didn't want to do, at the time at least. "We can't put up that antenna now. It's dark and unsafe." "Well, get some HMMWVs, turn the head lights on and put that fikken antenna up! NOW! It'll take less than 10 min and ya'll get done faster if you quit bitching!"

[wellard]

Thankyou for the explanation Felix . As Cerek says it does look like spin. But if one more question could be answered from the original article

"He told me that three of the vehicles they were to use were deadlines ... not safe to go in a hotbed like that," Patricia McCook said."

In the above context, what does deadlines mean?