Jerry! Jerry!

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: The SBVFT are a bunch of partisan dousch bags. They are a bunch of bitter Republican pills who can't get over the fact that Kerry joined thousands of other Vets speaking out against the Vietnam war when he returned from service there. I nominate them collectively for this year's "Biggest Douschbags in the Universe" award.

So saying something against your chosen candidate qualifies these other Vietnam Veterans as "Biggest Douschbags in the Universe". How very tolerant of opposing views you are, Chewbacca.

But it's alright for Michael Moore to produce a partisan film whose only goal (by Moore's own admission) is to make sure George W. Bush doesn't get re-elected. Moore also created a completely FALSE hype over the supposed "banning" of it's distribution by Disney to increase ticket sales and smear "big business" at the same time.

As for the "overwhelming evidence" against the SVBFT, the evidence against Moore's manipulations in his films is also overwhelming - you just choose not to believe any of it.

One thing I can tell you for a fact is that MOST Vietnam Veterans have very little tolerance for those that spoke out against the war the way Kerry did. I have two unlces that are Vietnam Vets and they both despise Jane Fonda to this day because of her actions. Yes, she and Kerry had a right to do and say what they wanted to...but the rest of the veterans have that SAME right..and you will find this reaction is standard among the vast majority of them.

I also find it ironic that Kerry had such condemnation of our actions in Vietnam back when it was political vogue to do so, but now he wants to emphasize and highlight the part he played in it.

What I heard about this incident came from a retired general who has talked to 18 of the men that were present during the incident on the river. Every single one of them denies Kerry's account of the situation. They also take great offense at Kerry using a photo of him with many of these same men in one of his campaign ads to show the "support and cameraderie" he had with these men. That photo was used without the permission of any of the other men in the picture. Kerry didn't contact any of them to ask their opinion on the photo being used. They said that the incident where he "rushed ashore" to save another member and had to kill a Viet Cong in the process has been "highly exaggerated" by Kerry.

Thier version of what happened is that the Viet Cong fired on their boat and they returned fire with their 50mm gun, hitting and critically wounding the Viet Cong shooter. Kerry then piloted his boat straight to the shore (which is a direct violation of military policy - you never take your boat to the shore when there is enemy fire), jumped off the boat and shot the Viet Cong as he lay bleeding on the ground. Then he picked up his fallen comrade and put him in the boat.

Now, personally, I don't care how Kerry performed his actions. I think it was admirable for him to save his comrade and there is nothing wrong with shooting a fallen enemy (who possibly could still shoot at your men). I also feel that Kerry earned the right to complain about the War (unlike Jane Fonda) because he did actually live the experience firsthand. (remember, I said it is other veterans that despise him for his actions...I didn't say I completely agreed with them).

As for the evidence you presented, I couldn't read the bit from the Washington Post and I don't feel like registering just to see it. One thing to keep in mind about the reports written at the time is that there has also been LOTS of accusations that many reports were either falsified or written under coercion and duress from senior officers during the War. The gov't didn't want any "negative" presentation of the war and most reports were written by senior officers with that directive in mind. There have been plenty of accusations in other incidents that junior officers (and regular enlisted men) were basically forced to go along with the senior officer account, regardless of what it said.

Now, as far as Kerry's Bronze Star is concerned, it isn't my place to question whether he deserved it or not. The only ones that could actually question that are the ones who were actually there at the time. Of course, those men have now been labeled "Biggest Douschbags in the Universe", so I suppose that means their opinions and accounts don't count.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Now, personally, I don't care how Kerry performed his actions. I think it was admirable for him to save his comrade and there is nothing wrong with shooting a fallen enemy (who possibly could still shoot at your men). I also feel that Kerry earned the right to complain about the War (unlike Jane Fonda) because he did actually live the experience firsthand. (remember, I said it is other veterans that despise him for his actions...I didn't say I completely agreed with them). Now, as far as Kerry's Bronze Star is concerned, it isn't my place to question whether he deserved it or not. The only ones that could actually question that are the ones who were actually there at the time. Of course, those men have now been labeled "Biggest Douschbags in the Universe", so I suppose that means their opinions and accounts don't count.

I agree Cerek, I wasn't there, I didn't see what went on Kerry may have deserved the Bronze Star, or he may not have deserved it. I find it interesting the men that claim something negative about President Bush's service are great and wonderful, men that claim something negative about Kerry's service are... well I believe it has degraded into name calling by of all people not the evil Name Callers (as they are labeled).

I do know this, one of the canidates running for the office of President of the USA has by his own admition comitted acts contrary to the GC and Atrocities by his own hand. The other canidate, actions labeled atrocities were committed that are at least 6 to 8 degrees of seperation away from his own hand, yet he is not fit to be President of the USA because of 6 to 8 degrees of seperation, but the man who's hands preformed atrocities, who's finger pulled the trigger after recieving nerve impulses from his brain is fit for President of the USA.

[Felix The Assassin]

If the non-believing wants, or it goes further in this post, I will post a link to a Veterans use group. I will say that 90% of the Vietnam era vets find Kerry untrustworty, vile, and having a hidden agenda that just hasn't appeared yet, he will not receive their votes. 65% of all modern vets still support the president.

I will say, that neither have a great product over the other, but the current 'War President' has an advantage in these groups.


A traitor on the high court in the moderen political world would be fixed by this Teddy fellow who has many strings.

Treason, however, could change things. But keep in mind, if he does pull it off. He will have to answer to the groups that will push his records, accounts, and his personal involvement in Paris.

I will join the single largest NFP political group next year. The "Retired Enlisted Association".

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Thanks for the information, Felix. I didn't have any concrete facts or figures, just a general guesstimate based on the knowledge of how my uncle's feel and the comments of the retired general (that matched your figures very closely).

As I said, I'm not casting any assertions of doubt on Kerry's service record. As far as I'm concerned, he does deserve certain degree of respect for actually serving in Vietnam instead of staying stateside or leaving the country altogether (as the two previous candidates did). Also, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that he did serve in Vietnam means he earned the right to complain and speak out against the actions that were taken there.

I found another article on CNN regarding the ads and the controversial incident mentioned in them. This article apparantly justifies Kerry's action of beaching his boat (which is supposed to be against military strategy) by saying he and the other officers had discussed exactly how they would handle ambushes ahead of time and all 3 agreed on this tactic.

It also says that Kerry received the Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts in addition to his Bronze Star. So I do feel he deserves a measure of respect for that also (my grandfather received the Purple Heart in WWII and was a POW of the Nazi's for several months).

Here is the link to the CNN story --> Bush Advisor quits after appearing in Swift Boat ad

I will also give the Bush Campaign credit for saying the volunteer could no longer serve on their committee due to his appearance in the ads. If nothing else, they are at least trying to publicly maintain their distance from the Swift Boat group.

As for them "coordinating" with the Bush Campaign, I seriously doubt. As Felix said, the large majority of Vietnam Veterans DO NOT LIKE OR TRUST KERRY!!! I know it may be really hard to believe a group of people could actually dislike Kerry without George W. Bush telling them to do so, but a lot of veterans do not like Kerry and they are JUST as determined to see that he doesn't win the election as others are to see that Bush doesn't win. They don't have to coordinate their efforts with the Bush Campaign - they do just fine on their own.

And I will be the first to criticize Bush for not denouncing the ads.....JUST as soon as Kerry does the same thing for any "negative" ads that appear about Bush that are not sponsored by HIS Election Campaign (and of course, we know that they wouldn't THINK of doing anything like that to begin with. ).

{sigh} Like Timber says in his signature - "It's Spin Season. Hold on Tight"

[ 08-22-2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

[Djinn Raffo]

Remember one of Bushes campaign slogans 4 years ago was the he was a 'Uniter not a divider'. I think that one has gone over as well as Dad's 'Read my lips..' It seems Americans are as divided on the issues of the day as I can recall in my lifetime.

[Khazadman Risen]

I find Kerry's response to the swift boat vets to be laughable. His supporters have spent tens of millions of dollars, if not more, bashing Bush. But let these guys come along with only about one hundred thousand bucks worth of backing and Kerry starts threatening publishers and tv stations with his jack booted attornies. Bush has been putting up with this stuff for about five years and you don't see his attornies trying to supress anyones freedom of speech. I guess that says alot about Kerry, huh? Well you know the old saying: if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: As I said, I'm not casting any assertions of doubt on Kerry's service record. As far as I'm concerned, he does deserve certain degree of respect for actually serving in Vietnam instead of staying stateside or leaving the country altogether (as the two previous candidates did). Also, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that he did serve in Vietnam means he earned the right to complain and speak out against the actions that were taken there.

I can relate to what you have written, Cerek. However, it is my personal feeling, it was part of his life long hidden agenda. Three PH's and your out. It took him from November to March to accomplish this. Beer math makes that 5 months max.

It also appears that a former senator, and a WWII vet questions the same. Hijacked from the net.

The very last sentence of the article carries a lot of value!

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...A&SECTION=HOME


Aug 22, 6:59 PM EDT

Dole Questions Kerry's Vietnam Wounds

By PETE YOST
Associated Press Writer




CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) -- Former Republican Sen. Bob Dole suggested Sunday that John Kerry apologize for past testimony before Congress about alleged atrocities during the Vietnam War and joined critics of the Democratic presidential candidate who say he received an early exit from combat for "superficial wounds."

Dole also called on Kerry to release all the records of his service in Vietnam.

Separately, President Bush's re-election campaign continued to deny links to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, an anti-Kerry group running ads in three states, after the resignation of a campaign volunteer who appeared in the group's new ad.

With Kerry taking a break from campaigning, running mate John Edwards said Bush needs to tell the group to pull its ads, a step the White House and the Bush campaign refuse to take. The White House and Bush's campaign note that Kerry has benefited from more than $62 million worth of similar advertising against the president.

"This is the moment of truth for President Bush," Edwards said in North Carolina. "The American people have to hear directly that these ads need to come off the air." Kerry also fought back in another new ad.

Dole told CNN's "Late Edition" that he warned Kerry months ago about going "too far" and that the Democrat may have himself to blame for the current situation, in which polls show him losing support among veterans.

"One day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons," Dole said. "The next day he's standing there, `I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.' Maybe he should apologize to all the other 2.5 million veterans who served. He wasn't the only one in Vietnam," said Dole, whose World War II wounds left him without the use of his right arm.

Dole added: "And here's, you know, a good guy, a good friend. I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out."

Interactives
Democratic Convention

Photos - Democratic Convention

Presidential Campaign

9/11 Commission Report

Photo Gallery: The Primaries

Election News
Edwards Unveils Plan to Slow Job Losses

E-Vote Machine Certification Criticized

Dole Questions Kerry's Vietnam Wounds

Murkowski Braces for Alaska Sen. Primary

Riley: Bush Re-Election Will Change Court

Web Link
John Kerry's Military Records
Audio
Schumer says the charges won't affect Kerry come election time.


Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton said: "It's unfortunate that Senator Dole is making statements that official U.S. Navy records prove false. This is partisan politics, not the truth."

Other Kerry supporters also rose to his defense.

"Senator Kerry carries shrapnel in his thigh as distinct from President Bush who carries two fillings in his teeth from his service in the Alabama National Guard, which seems to be his only time that he showed up," John Podesta, former chief of staff in the Clinton White House, said on ABC's "This Week."

Bush served stateside in the Guard during the Vietnam years. Podesta's reference was to the White House's release of documents earlier this year showing Bush's dental visits during his Guard years after questions arose about whether he had always reported for duty.

Bush-Cheney campaign manager Ken Mehlman also blamed Kerry for the ongoing debate, complaining on NBC's "Meet the Press" that "Kerry himself has attacked the president for his service during the Vietnam years," while the Republican's campaign has "so strongly praised" Kerry's tour of duty in Vietnam.

The Bush campaign also said the Federal Election Commission should immediately dismiss what it termed a "frivolous" complaint by Kerry's campaign alleging coordination between the re-election effort and the Swift Boat group.

The White House and the Bush campaign for weeks have denied any connection to the Swift Boat organization, whose early financial support came largely from a prominent Texas businessman with longtime ties to the state's top Republicans, including Bush.

The group's latest ad includes a Bush-Cheney volunteer, retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier, condemning Kerry's 1971 congressional testimony that Dole spoke of. Cordier was a prisoner of war during Vietnam.

"Colonel Cordier did not inform the campaign of his involvement in the advertisement," a Bush campaign statement said. "Because of his involvement Colonel Cordier will no longer participate as a volunteer for Bush-Cheney '04."

A new Kerry TV ad urged the president to "denounce the smear" and 'get back to the issues" because America deserves better." The 30-second commercial, to air in the same three states as the Swift Boat group ad - Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin - compares Kerry's situation to the 2000 primary campaign when "Bush smeared John McCain."

McCain has condemned the ads and called on the president to do so, too.

In response, Bush's campaign released a copy of a letter it was sending to television station managers on Monday defending itself from the claims in the new Kerry ad.

Questions mounted over the motives of Kerry's critics, two of whom had praised his service in 1996, even as Kerry's supporters faced questions about the candidate. Among the allegations is that Kerry lied about being in neutral Cambodia on Christmas Eve 1968.

"I don't think anyone knows for sure whether or not they were in Cambodia that night, but they were near Cambodia on Christmas Eve," John Hurley, who heads a pro-Kerry veterans group, said on "Fox News Sunday." "He was five miles into Cambodia on a different occasion."

Another allegation is that Kerry was not under enemy fire as after-action reports say he was, an incident for which he received a Bronze Star, one of five medals earned in Vietnam.

"The after-action reports were written from Kerry's spot reports from that day," said Kerry critic Van Odell, also appearing on the same program. "None of us knew he even got the Bronze Star until more recently."

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Remember one of Bushes campaign slogans 4 years ago was the he was a 'Uniter not a divider'. I think that one has gone over as well as Dad's 'Read my lips..' It seems Americans are as divided on the issues of the day as I can recall in my lifetime.

"It seems Americans are as divided on the issues of the day as I can recall in my lifetime." Americans are divided and dividing for their own reasons not because President Bush is trying to divide them.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: So saying something against your chosen candidate qualifies these other Vietnam Veterans as "Biggest Douschbags in the Universe". How very tolerant of opposing views you are, Chewbacca.

Thanks. I try. I do wonder how making a little Southpark inspired joke to express my disagreement makes me more or less tolerant.

I also wonder what the hell gives you permission to make such an observation about me? In reality this is just another in a long line of off-topic personal sniping from you. It's so consistent in recent times, I can practically count on it whenever I see plum-colored font replying to a post of mine.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not going to bother replying to the weak strawman analogy about Micheal Moore and unsupported opinions about Vet's veiwpoints. It is obvious from how you framed your reply in the beginning that your more interested in taking swipes at me, rather than independently researching to Swift Vet issue.

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by John D Harris: quote: Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Remember one of Bushes campaign slogans 4 years ago was the he was a 'Uniter not a divider'. I think that one has gone over as well as Dad's 'Read my lips..' It seems Americans are as divided on the issues of the day as I can recall in my lifetime.

"It seems Americans are as divided on the issues of the day as I can recall in my lifetime." Americans are divided and dividing for their own reasons not because President Bush is trying to divide them. [/QUOTE]I never suggested President Bush was the cause of the dividing.

I suggested President Bush was a failure for not being a Uniter as he projected in his original Presidential campaign.

You acknowledge in your post that Americans are as divided as ever. Do you agree then that President Bush has failed to live up to his campaign pledge of being a UNITER and NOT a DIVIDER?