Mock-tater Al-Satyr

[Dreamer128]

As it turns out, the mosque wasn't taken to begin with;

NAJAF, Iraq (CNN) -- Combat operations in Najaf were temporarily suspended late Friday to allow political negotiations with radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr to go forward, U.S. military officials reported.

A high-level delegation from the interim Iraqi government is expected to arrive in Najaf overnight, officials said.

The delegation will try to meet with al-Sadr in an effort to bring a peaceful end to the tense standoff around the Imam Ali mosque, one of the holiest shrines in Shiite Islam.

Earlier Friday, Iraqi Interior Ministry spokesman Sabah Kadhim said Iraqi police seized control of the mosque. But later, Iraqi police said they had not.

There have been no signs of activity around the mosque all day Friday, according to CNN producer Kianne Sadeq, who is nearby.

U.S. officials at the Pentagon said there is no sense that supporters of al-Sadr have pulled out of the mosque; and that U.S. and Iraqi forces still surround it.

A senior aide to al-Sadr said the Medhi Army has not yet handed over the keys to the mosque since no high religious authority has been found to take them.

U.S. and Iraqi forces surrounded the mosque in an effort to pressure al-Sadr's fighters, who were holed up in the complex.

Meanwhile, Iraqi Ministry of Health officials said 77 Iraqis were killed and 70 were wounded overnight in heavy fighting.

The dead included six Iraqi police officers.

Recent fighting in the city center has damaged the mosque and two of its minarets, according to CNN's Sadeq.

Al-Sadr has refused to negotiate on the latest Iraqi government ultimatum because, an aide said, he and his forces want to deal with a delegation from the Iraqi National Conference and not one from the interim government.

At the Iraqi National Conference, more than 1,000 religious, political and civic leaders are working to elect a 100-member council to advise and oversee the interim government until elections in January.

Iraqi officials have threatened to "liberate" the mosque in a military offensive if al-Sadr's militia forces don't leave.

"We are very determined that blood loss should be minimized," interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi said.

Sadeq, who went inside the mosque compound Thursday with a group of journalists, reported persistent sounds of mortars, gunfire and explosions. She said there was also a great deal of sniper fire.

The journalists were greeted by the Mehdi Army with cheers and chants of "We will not stand down!" Fighters flashed pictures of al-Sadr and many danced. Also inside the compound were women and children, most of whom appeared in a festive mood like the rest of the al-Sadr followers. (On the Scene: Inside the mosque)

Airstrikes in Falluja
U.S. airstrikes on antiaircraft positions in Falluja on Friday killed at least five Iraqis, according to a hospital official in the city.

Lt. Col. Thomas Johnson with the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force said the airstrikes targeted sites that were firing on U.S. aircraft.

The first strike happened around 1 a.m. (5 p.m. Thursday ET) in the western district of al-Sina'i, killing two people and wounding four others.

The second took place about 10 hours later and resulted in large secondary explosions, Johnson said, suggesting a weapons depot was near the antiaircraft position.

A Falluja hospital official said the airstrike hit a milk factory, killing three Iraqis and wounding two others.

Earlier, a U.S. C-130 gunship fired on insurgents in eastern Falluja, after insurgents fired small arms and antiaircraft weapons at the gunship overnight Thursday. They were also seen firing mortars at a U.S. military base there.

Other developments

A claim posted on an Islamist Web site from a purported militant group Friday said 12 Nepalese nationals have been taken hostage in Iraq. In the statement, the group named the men and said they were captured for cooperating with the United States.


The Iraqi Ministry of Health said Friday that fighting in Baghdad overnight had killed 13 Iraqis and wounded 107, with most of the casualties happening in Sadr City. The area is a Shiite neighborhood and a focus for the activities of al-Sadr supporters.


The CIA's final report on its search for weapons of mass destruction might include a reference to how Saddam Hussein regime's WMD capabilities would have evolved if the U.S. invasion hadn't occurred, CIA spokesman Mark Mansfield said Friday. The 100-page report "will not be speculative," Mansfield said, and any reference to future capabilities will not be the focus of the report.


An aide to al-Sadr told CNN that he has been "assured" that French-American journalist Micah Garen would be released by his kidnappers either Friday or Saturday. In video broadcast on the Arabic-language television network Al-Jazeera, Garen said, "I'm being treated well."


Two soldiers from the U.S. Army's 1st Infantry Division died just before 6 p.m. Friday when a roadside bomb exploded next to their patrol in the city of Samarra, about 60 miles north of Baghdad, a U.S. Army spokesman said. Also Friday, the U.S. military confirmed the deaths of two U.S. Marines in Al Anbar province fighting on Wednesday and Thursday. The deaths bring to 957 the number of U.S. troops killed since the Iraq war began, including 715 listed as hostile deaths.

[PoleCat]

This may seem off topic but bear with me.

You all should check out the latest edition of Harper's magazine (Sept. 2004) for an article titled "Bahgdad: Year Zero". I know, I know - Harper's is usually so far left that I point and laugh at it, but a good Demo friend of mine whose opinion I respect pointed it out to me.

This article paints a pretty harsh picture of NeoCons, Bremer and the CPA and lays a lot of blame on the current insurgency on his Iraq economic and reconstruction policies, mostly his attempts to privatize all Iraqi industry and sell it to foriegn investors. Supposedly, the real plan from the start was to set up a kind of Company Store in Iraq where all industry would be totally owned by outside investors thereby making the new Iraq totally dependent on other countries for guidance and financial stability. The article claims that normal Iraqis were being financially crippled by the CPA policies and decided to turn to violence to "solve" the issue - good luck to 'em.

There is also a small piece about our man of the hour (or at least the next 15 minutes), Muck Raker al-Soddom and his growing popularity within fundamentalist Shiite circles due to his charitable works helping those who have been most harmed by the new policies. It does fail to mention his less than noble pursuits, like setting up his own private army and whatnot.

If you happen to read the article then take it with a grain or two of salt - It is still an interesting article nonetheless.

Back on topic - if we kill this man then we make him a martyr and we still lose. It has gotten to the point where we may have to do business with him whether we like it or not. What a clusterF.

[Timber Loftis]

I'm happy to make martyrs. Give 'em more frikken martyrs than they can stomach. The muslim afterlife can be teaming with harems full of 100 virgins each for all I care.

As for the Harper's article, I must note that the Iraqi government can stop such privatization. In fact, the government can, and if it is like the US it WILL, nationalize a lot of private industries -- such as utilities and municipal water supplies. Once they get a government in place, they can procure services from whomever they want, not just the horrible US evil empires of Halliburton and her subsidiaries and subcontractors.

[Felix The Assassin]

Timber, Timber, Timber, are you ready to [img]graemlins/1popcorn.gif[/img]
It's not how WE feel about martyrs, but how it is perceived in the muslim world. This would equate to "fighting the million man infantry army" [img]graemlins/2gunfire.gif[/img] A battle that none of us want.

However, there are three phrases that you are familiar with, that maybe you should re-look.

Law of War
Rules of Engagement
Geneva Convention

A Mosque (protection of) can be found in all three.

However, it does remind me of a FICTIONAL BOOK that was written about the Nam era. Basically a political delagte wanted to visit some Holy Shrine, and it was housed near a SPECOPS fire base. Anyhow, the story went on about a daily flight of birds that left the area about 1630. So, the idea was emplaced, and the munitions buried. The day the delegates arrived, promptly at 1630 the birds departed, and the Fire Base reacted as a mortar attack. Three shells (planted heavy anti-tank mines, remote detonated) landed in a line, two of which took out outer walls of the shrine.
I cannot remember which book or author to give credit to, BUT I'm sure it was a FICTIONAL book.

My [img]graemlins/2cents.gif[/img] We equip the Aljazzer(sp) with Special Cameras. Give them the full deal on how to operate them, night vision included. But don't tell them about the GPS transmitter that is always on, and sends a 10 digit grid 24/7. That way, we will know all of the locations of all the people we want to, say, have a open encounter with, say, a special group of folks.

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by Stratos: Patience, my child, patience.

An excellent pre-cursor their, Stratos.

Washington Times
August 20, 2004
Pg. 6

Rice Says Patience Needed For Iraq

By James G. Lakely, The Washington Times

National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice yesterday urged patience for President Bush's plan to spread democracy throughout the Middle East, saying that most Muslims don't know the "simple truths" of religious tolerance that Americans take for granted.

In an address to the U.S. Institute of Peace, Miss Rice decried the "tendency toward impatience with every twist and turn in Iraq."

She also suggested that the country has a lower hurdle to leap toward tolerance and unity because, unlike the United States, it does not have to overcome a legacy of slavery.

"These are people in their first stages of democratic development," Miss Rice said. "And if I could say one thing to all of us in the United States of America, who live in a democracy that is 230 years old, it is that we need to be both more patient with people who are making these early steps, less critical of every twist and turn, less certain that every up and down is going to collapse the process, and more humble about how long it has taken us to get to a multiethnic democracy that works.

"And I will tell you one thing. To this point, I have not yet seen the Iraqis make a compromise as bad as the one that in 1789 made my ancestors three-fifths of a man," said Miss Rice, who is black.

The administration's handling of the war on terror has become a major issue in President Bush's re-election campaign, with Democrats casting doubt on Mr. Bush's aggressive plan to change hostile, autocratic regimes into democratic friends of the United States — starting with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Miss Rice's speech and question-and-answer session yesterday was one of the administration's strongest and most thorough explanations of the president's complex plan.

Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry said earlier this month that Mr. Bush's decision to topple Saddam Hussein and his execution of the war on terror is "actually encouraging the recruitment of terrorists."

Miss Rice said Mr. Bush's strategy is the best way to drown out the "small minority of extremists in the Muslim world who indeed hate America and will always hate America."

"They hate our policies, our values, our freedoms, our very way of life," she said. "When that hatred is expressed through terrorist violence, there is only one proper response, and that response is that we must find them and defeat them, defeat those who seek to kill our people and to harm our country."

The fact that most of the 1 billion Muslims in the world don't hate the United States is proven by the "many Muslims born in other lands" who have learned of America's tradition of religious tolerance and good intentions "as they pray in America's 1,200 mosques and raise their American children in the Islamic faith," she said.

Mr. Bush wants to spread democracy in the Middle East, however, because "we cannot take for granted that Muslims in the rest of the world know these simple truths."

"We need to get the truth about our values and our policies to the people of the Middle East because truth serves the cause of freedom," Miss Rice said. "We must also do everything that we can to support and encourage the voices of moderation and tolerance and pluralism within the Muslim world."

Miss Rice said the rapid turnover of sovereignty to a new Iraqi government was driven by the Bush administration's cognizance that many in the Middle East resent what they see as Western meddling in their culture.

"There is a hunger for new ideas and fresh thinking in the broader Middle East, and that hunger cannot ultimately be satisfied by the work of outsiders," Miss Rice said. "Just as freedom must always be chosen, lasting progress and reform in society must emerge from within."

Miss Rice delivered her speech on the first anniversary of the terrorist bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad. The United Nations refused the protection of U.S. forces and quit Iraq shortly after the attack, leaving the 11-month occupation of the country to the United States.

[Magness]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: "And I will tell you one thing. To this point, I have not yet seen the Iraqis make a compromise as bad as the one that in 1789 made my ancestors three-fifths of a man," said Miss Rice, who is black.

*sigh*

(begin threadjack)

This is really a disturbing statement of ignorance on the part of Ms. Rice. Additionally, the 3/5 compromise is almost always misunderstood.

During the constitutional negotiations, the southern states wanted to count slaves at 100% of a person for the purposes of representation in the House of Reps, but they would still be slaves and not have the right to vote.

IIRC, the northern states would have prefered to abolish slavery altogether, but it was obvious that it would not be possible to do that and write a constitution for the US.

The 3/5 compromise was the done to not let the southern slave states count slaves as a full part of their population for representation, while getting their support for the Constitution.

It's really easy in hindsight to say that it was a "bad compromise". What would she have preferred and would have still been attainable? The answer is that there were none. If she's bitching that slavery wasn't abolished when the Constitution was written, I can sympathize with the sentiment, but rationally abolition at that time was not possible. The southern states would have never signed the Constitution. The CSA might have been formed in the 1780's, instead of the 1860's. And who knows what would have happened in that scenario.

No, the very unfortunate truth is that there was no alternative at that time. It was either form a United States with all 13 colonies and slavery, or possibly have 2 seperate countries, one slave, one free.


And if you want to look further down the road from that scenario, what would the North and the South have done in the 20th century? How would they have looked at WW1 and WW2? Would either or both have been strong enough to matter in either or both WW1 and WW2? How would those WW's have turned out differently?


For that matter, would the north and the south gotten along? How would they have looked at each other when the explorers moved westward? Would the N and the S have ended up fighting a war(s) over ... any number of potential points of friction? Would there have been a single USA at some point in the 19th century?

The questions are endless. As unfortunate as the 3/5 compromise was on an emotional level, it is intellectually ignorant to speak of how bad it was without considering the likely alternatives.


(end threadjack)

[Ilander]

I dunno...I'm morally against bombing a mosque...buuuuuut, if the mosque is a non-functioning mosque, ie, one used as a base for terrorist operations and is not being used for anything else, then its not a mosque...and as such, is a target.

Would it matter too much, if it had been razed to the ground? Wouldn't the US and maybe a few other countries pay for it to be rebuilt, anyway?

Come on, a building is a building, unless we attach some special purpose to it?

[johnny]

It's not just the building, the whole damn city is holy. Basically that means that no christian dogs can enter, or any other non-believers. Of course those are THEIR silly rules, and as far as i can tell, there are no rules for dealing with people like this. Very rarely you have a target SO obvious, they're all hiding in one and the same building, what more can you ask for ? It's a dream for every artillerie commander.

[Gab]

Bombing the mosque will result in more than just making people angry, it'll likely result in an uprising among the people of Najaf. It's common sense people. The best solution is to cut off all water, electricity, supplies and starve al-Sadr out.

[ 10-21-2004, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Gab ]

[johnny]

There already IS an uprising, it wouldn't change a thing.